tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post2724774847030292424..comments2024-03-26T00:47:55.322-07:00Comments on Shrikant G Talageri: The Ikṣvākus in the RigvedaShrikant Talagerihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15700049337974422213noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-7125037544391217642023-02-09T04:23:26.165-08:002023-02-09T04:23:26.165-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Goran Perichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07057382395750399573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-45779351619180957482023-02-09T03:02:15.491-08:002023-02-09T03:02:15.491-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Goran Perichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07057382395750399573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-79912881488011510112021-03-06T03:03:08.550-08:002021-03-06T03:03:08.550-08:00There is a Nami Sapya twice mentioned in the Rigve...There is a Nami Sapya twice mentioned in the Rigveda as a beneficiary of Indra's help. I don't think he has any connection with the Nimi of Videha.<br />There is the well known reference in the Shatapatha Brahmana to a Videgha Mathava who took the Agni-worship system to the Videha area. He is identified, I believe, by many scholars as Nimi the founder of Videha. I don't know what conclusions can be drawn from this meagre and vague data. Shrikant Talagerihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15700049337974422213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-56217789398740197382021-03-05T03:23:22.975-08:002021-03-05T03:23:22.975-08:00Sir I have a question, more like confused. King Ni...Sir I have a question, more like confused. King Nimi is descended from the Iksavaku lineage. Is he mentioned in the Rig Veda? King Nimi is said to be the founder of the Vedaha dynasty which located in close to Mithila. King Janaka is also associated with these Area as well. So it means that the these were post Rig Vedic kingdoms as its commonly thaught but Vedic. Is this correct? Raghavar Voltorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05388765194273606957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-56627827611351649612020-11-26T05:01:12.529-08:002020-11-26T05:01:12.529-08:00@Puru
Thanks for the explanation. According to yo...@Puru<br /><br />Thanks for the explanation. According to you when in time do you place the entry/exit of R1a. As I said above one way is to place it around 3000Bc where all the Vedic/ Sanskrit development happens subsequently, possibly with contribution from IVC people or from a mixture of above steppe and IVC people within India.<br /><br />Other option is to assign R1a to incursion from outside India but at much later time right down to Sakas etc. Here as far as I know the model fails as no eastern component is seen in India IA speakers are expected from later incursions.<br /><br />Yet other option is origin of R1a in India as your mentioned in point 3. In this case the model of the dispersal from India towards steppe, Europe needs to be created. Also when would you place such a movement in time? Vishwa Yatrihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02932764908397645695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-35715366518281881402020-11-25T05:12:07.942-08:002020-11-25T05:12:07.942-08:00* correction to point 2b (ii)
The "unique&qu...* correction to point 2b (ii)<br /><br />The "unique" steppe ancestry found in SWAT aDNA shows almost NO presence of steppe R1a gene. Puruhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01994616662987854543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-12653097049131950442020-11-25T05:07:12.853-08:002020-11-25T05:07:12.853-08:00Hi Vishwa Yatri,
In the context of genetics, I wa...Hi Vishwa Yatri,<br /><br />In the context of genetics, I wanted to mention a few points here.<br />1. Genetics can only serve as an evidence when you there is a population replacement occurring or the migrants are many folds bigger in number than the original inhabitants. Such case is easily seen in Europe, as per Olalde et al 2018, we see a complete population replacement in wester Europe (Britain, Spain, Portugal) ~2,500BCE in such a genocidal extent that it lead to 100% complete Y-chromosome replacement. Similar scenarios are seen across Europe after 3000BCE. <br />2. Do we see such scenario in South Asia? answer is big fat NO. I will explain what the genetic data tells us. see below<br /><br />2a. In Modern Indian population (as per Narasimhan et al. 2019), 87.6% of the ancestry comes directly from the Indus Valley. Even in IA speakers of South Asia - 85.4% ancestry is directly from Indus Valley DNA.<br /><br />2b. Look at the published supplementary data of Narasimhan et al 2019 here - (https://science.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2019/09/04/365.6457.eaat7487.DC1)<br />They talk about the SWAT valley aDNA which shows admixture between Indus & steppe occurring between 1400-1900 BCE. (these SWAT aDNA skeletons are carbon dated to 1000BCE). Using this and the absence of aDNA from proper South Asia (not the periphery). Furthering their own paradigm, the Narasimhan concluded that steppe ancestry which is seen in the modern South Asian thus arrived here between 2000-1500BCE.<br /><br />Forget about "alleged" migration of Sanskrit into South Asia, their own data contradicts even with the steppe migration too.<br />why?<br />Because of the following reasons<br />i) The so called aryan gene - the R1a is almost non-existing in the SWAT valley aDNA.<br />ii) Even in the periphery of South Asia (in SWAT aDNA) - this unique steppe ancestry (with the steppe R1a gene) is a little as 10-20%<br />iii) The autosomal make up of the SWAT aDNA is incompatible with the modern data South Asians. Implying that the "unique" steppe people whose ancestry is found in SWAT aDNA are NOT the people whose ancestry is found in the modern South Asian.<br />iv) even as per the Narasimhan, there are almost no admixture dates calculated for the modern South Asian, which are concentrated between 2000-1500 BCE.<br /><br />3. The last thing is the origin of R1a, I am NOT going to mention the on record claims of Niraj Rai and Gyaneshwar Chaubey, lets just look at what the published researches say about R1a origin. <br />Although I will admit that there isn't a grand scholarly consensus. But if you want to see which side the scale tips. There are more scholars/ papers which find the R1a origin to be in South Asia. I must also admit that Indus Valley aDNA haven't so far shown the presence of R1a in them, which is interesting. Despite the fact that as per published papers, the R1a age is the oldest in India. to be precise in J&K then as you move south into India and west into Asia and Europe - the age of R1a decreases in a linear fashion. Refer to Table 3 in Shrma et al here - https://www.nature.com/articles/jhg20082Puruhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01994616662987854543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-49643712246561252732020-11-17T13:19:42.569-08:002020-11-17T13:19:42.569-08:00Firstly thanks for taking out time to reply to my ...Firstly thanks for taking out time to reply to my comment.<br /><br />1. I know it is convoluted. After Narsimhan's paper which suggest there was no interaction of Steppe people coming to India even with BMAC culture I thought on this line to try and align DNA evidence + linguistic evidence from you. I am not talking about bringing 'Aryans' in but rather the steppe dna R1a into India. I read already that 'Aryan' is not necessarily steppe people but could also be honorific term used.<br /><br />Also I found the chronology of epics Ramayana, Mahabharata peculiar and not in accordance to north west arrival. Hence your hypothesis about vedic aryans being just one of the several IA groups perfect to explain this anomaly of earlier epic being based deeper in gangetic plains. Hence this idea of such a difficult way in for these steppe gene into India without passing north west region of India and still reaching deep into India.<br /><br />2) I was assuming Indo iranian, hittite and balto slavic group arrive in India before 3000BC and then leave by 2000 BC. Since they have higher affinity to Indic. The rest I am assuming already separating before 3000 BC<br /><br />I wanted to know your opinion as to whether such a scenario passes occam's razor. It seems it doesnt. Thanks for answering none the less.Vishwa Yatrihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02932764908397645695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-62519606445940977122020-11-17T13:16:53.624-08:002020-11-17T13:16:53.624-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Vishwa Yatrihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02932764908397645695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-20856948529089914142020-11-16T05:04:59.504-08:002020-11-16T05:04:59.504-08:00The theory you suggest above to somehow bring the ...The theory you suggest above to somehow bring the "Aryans" into India from South Russia into India by 3000 BCE raises many impossible situations. To take just two:<br /><br />1. The arrival of the ancestors of the Vedic people into India from Tibet over the Himalayas, where they must have been constantly climbing and descending the world's highest mountain ranges and moving through extremely unhospitable terrains and unimaginable routes (with cattle and chariots?) is like a science fiction film.<br /><br />2. The linguistic point is not the non-mention of the northwest. It is that common terms for cart-and-wheel technology and copper technology, among other things, developed in common in all the 12 branches of IE languages around 3000 BCE. So then did the speakers of all these 12 branches come across the Himalayas into India by 3000 BCE and then spread west to Europe and West Asia after that? If so, where does the question of a South Russian origin arise in the first place? Shrikant Talagerihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15700049337974422213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-35628326738588156422020-11-14T11:52:46.339-08:002020-11-14T11:52:46.339-08:00I have been reading your blogs but have not finish...I have been reading your blogs but have not finished reading all of them. So please excuse if my question is already answered by you. <br /><br />While explaining the OIT theory at one place you ask a hypothetical question. If one assumes Aryans coming into India before 3000BC to take in account the later development of Rigveda in India itself still some questions remain. That of them not knowing north west geography and being localized in Haryana/ Western UP region until much later time (i.e. newer books of Rgveda) <br /><br />How would it pan out if one assumes the Indo-european speakers entering India not through north west as traditionally assumed but across Himalayas? Starting in tarim basin or thereabout where Tocharian was spoken, passing ideally somehwere near Kailas mountain in Tibet, across the himalayan ranges which have some of holiest sites of Hinduism on to north Indian plains. Here they split into Iksvakus and Pūru-Anu-Druhyu groups over next millenia. The further story is already explained by you in detail<br /><br />By this assumption the questions raised about early and late branches of IE languages are answered. The peculiar position occupied by Tocharian language in relation to early departure from IE homeland is taken care. For this I am assuming a circuitous route from south russia onto inner mountain steppe down to India, outward to west Asia ending back in Europe. <br />This also answers the question of genetic input (R1a haplogroup). I assume here multiple R1a migration towards India. One of them is already before 3000BC as explained above and one could imagine similar migrations in later stages right upto sakas etc in various numbers.<br /><br />Does that pass occam's razor?<br /><br />I would be happy to know what you think.<br /><br />Thanks and regards,<br />VYVishwa Yatrihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02932764908397645695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-44495980627245722152020-07-03T12:03:05.239-07:002020-07-03T12:03:05.239-07:00Archaeologist/historian Alexandr Semenenko has rec...Archaeologist/historian Alexandr Semenenko has recently released books in Russian promoting the OIT. Check out his English language videos here<br /><br />https://twitter.com/Vritrahan2014?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor<br /><br />His main claim is that what they call "chariots" in Eastern Europe are just carts. Mayuresh Madhav Kelkarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18418844256177729386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-19062630641405638652020-06-29T21:50:58.603-07:002020-06-29T21:50:58.603-07:00https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRcu-ysocX4 - so t...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRcu-ysocX4 - so theirs collapsed due to sea men. Ours had to be horse men!South Indianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12590425534134491472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-53994044974258591592020-06-04T19:29:17.379-07:002020-06-04T19:29:17.379-07:00Thank you sir.Thank you sir.Sagar Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10366138017961737186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-14499644213708230062020-05-31T20:32:45.604-07:002020-05-31T20:32:45.604-07:00The words Trtsu and Trksi are found only in the Ri...The words Trtsu and Trksi are found only in the Rigveda, and they clearly refer to the Bharatas and the Iksvakus respectively.Shrikant Talagerihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15700049337974422213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-70302783415776494112020-05-31T12:39:18.695-07:002020-05-31T12:39:18.695-07:00https://www.academia.edu/43115135/Semenenko_%D0%90...https://www.academia.edu/43115135/Semenenko_%D0%90.%D0%90._Watery_Humpback_Cattle_Pattern_in_Rigveda_and_Archaeology_of_the_Ancient_East<br /><br />"Due to the limitations of the text we can’t describe here all material embodiments of the watery<br />humpback cattle pattern in the archaeological record of the Ancient East regions starting from theIndus Valley around 4000 BCE and moving further in time (between 2800<br /> – <br />1000 BCE) and fartherWest through Afghanistan, Bactria<br /> – <br />Margiana and Iran up to the Central Anatolia. It is sufficient tostate that the first ever in the IE studies’ history exact archaeological route of the RVedic (=(Pre)Harappan) IA migration has been reconstructed by us supporting the Out-of-India Theory ofIE dispersal. The readers wishing to learn more are kindly asked to watch our video report on the 5th of December 2019 at the All-<br />Russian conference at Voronezh State Art Institution entitled ‘The motif of the humpback water bull in the culture of the Ancient East: art history comes to the aid of history’and the conference’s presentation and an updated map. [2]"Mayuresh Madhav Kelkarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18418844256177729386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-12024668035639931652020-05-31T01:15:06.961-07:002020-05-31T01:15:06.961-07:00Sir, is TRTSU (mentioned variously as family of Su...Sir, is TRTSU (mentioned variously as family of Sudas himself or as clansmen of Vasistha) the same as TRKSI? <br /><br />Earliest migration from Ayodhya to Central Asia was by Narisyanta, son of Vaivasvata Manu/brother of Ikshvaku. He is mentioned as the ancestor of SHAKA KSHATRIYAS. Sagar Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10366138017961737186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-20941897653914182522020-05-23T11:03:29.206-07:002020-05-23T11:03:29.206-07:00Ok, I was doing a little bit of search of my own. ...Ok, I was doing a little bit of search of my own. And yes based on the context there are various reason to believe that this river Sindhu is not the Indus but a tributary of Yamuna named Sindh.<br /> <br />The verses occurs in kishkindha kanda (4-40-20b,21,22,23). It describe rivers like Ganga, Sarayu, Kaushiki, Yamuna, Saraswati, Sindhu, Shona, Mahi, Kaalamahi. All of them are eastern rivers. Regarding Saraswati River which Talageri ji already explained that it is the underground Sarasvati" in Allahabad.<br /><br />For Sindhu which is actually river Sindh and not Indus in this case. Those same verses also mention places like Brahmamaala, Videha, Maalva, Kaashi, and Kosala, Maagadha, Pundra and Anga. All of them are eastern kingdoms/places.<br /><br />One of this places Maalva (Malwa Plateau) interestingly is the place from where Sindh River actually flows from and joins Yamuna. Also in this verses there is another river mention i.e river Mahi which is also nearer to Malwa Plateau though not nearer to Sindh River, but still all of them are within that same region i.e central-western MP. <br /><br />It could also be possible that this tributary was also known as Sindhu in the past. Just like the Sindh province of Pakistan which in ancient times known as Sindhu/Sindhu Kingdom.<br /><br />Again there is another river i.e Sarayu. But according to Rajesh kochhar’s this Sarayu is the Harayu/Hari/Heart/Hereyrud of Afghanistan which is in the west. So if these verses are mentioning eastern geography why a western river (Sarayu/Harayu) is mentioned with them. Even if kochhar assumed that Saraswati as Helmand and Sindhu as Indus then also Sarayu/Harayu still remains a western river. The logic is simple; this Sarayu just like other rivers is the Sarayu of present day eastern UP.<br /><br />Finally kishkindha kANDa (4-42-15) which describes the western geography again mentioned Sindhu. So one should ask him why Ramayana mentioning Sindhu twice, once in the east and another in the west. Again simple logic eastern Sindhu is river Sindh and western Sindhu is river Indus.<br /><br />I hope this analysis is right.arish108https://www.blogger.com/profile/13426868500839924438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-13941870855326675552020-05-23T08:34:49.272-07:002020-05-23T08:34:49.272-07:00"For people like rajesh kochhar Ramayana occu..."For people like rajesh kochhar Ramayana occurred in Afghanistan so according to him this makes perfect sense."<br /><br />This is a classic case of Kochhar wanting to have his cake and eat it too. <br /><br /><br />A review of Rajesh Kocchar's book by Koenraad Elst<br /><br /><br /><br />Refer to the section "Some far fetched proofs."<br /><br />http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/reviews/kochhar.html<br /><br />"He really goes overboard when he tries to counter the obvious objection that the whole surroundings of the Vedic Saraswati are unmistakably Indian (e.g. elephants), making its identification with the Afghan river Helmand difficult. Thus, in the famous River Hymn (RV 10:75), the rivers are enumerated from east to west, with the Saraswati coming after the Ganga and Yamuna and before the eastern tributaries of the Indus: here, like in the whole post-Rg-Vedic Sanskrit literature, the term "Saraswati" unmistakably refers to the Ghaggar/Hakra. So, Kochhar decides to move the whole Rg-Vedic setting along with the Saraswati into Afghanistan: Ganga and Yamuna become tributaries of the Helmand (p.131). Well, anything is possible, but this ad hoc solution really is far-fetched.<br /><br />Also, he sticks to the Afghan identification EVEN FOR THE POST RG VEDIC PERIOD (emphasis added) which he has otherwise admitted as showing Indian locations (with the settlement of Northwest India taking place during the late Rg-Vedic period): "We have shown that the description of Sarasvati and Sarayu in the Rgveda and even sutra literature, fits the Afghan rivers Helmand and Hari-rud better than any river in India." (p.222, emphasis added) Have we really?"<br /><br />So to sustain the Haraivaitti= Sarasvati equation Ramayana and Mahabharata have to happen in Afghanistan as well. <br />Mayuresh Madhav Kelkarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18418844256177729386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-47279801561392494642020-05-22T22:55:38.574-07:002020-05-22T22:55:38.574-07:00So you are saying that Sindhu mentioned in here is...So you are saying that Sindhu mentioned in here is not Indus but actually river Sindh.<br /><br />He didn't mention any reference or source for this identification.arish108https://www.blogger.com/profile/13426868500839924438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-63419143507238449062020-05-22T18:12:09.954-07:002020-05-22T18:12:09.954-07:00Even today we have the "underground Sarasvati...Even today we have the "underground Sarasvati" in Allahabad and the Sindh river going north from Madhya Pradesh to join the Yamuna in Jalaun district.<br />Now could you please tell me the source for Rajesh Kochhar's Ganga and Yamuna in Afghanistan? Shrikant Talagerihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15700049337974422213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-27637438269920156672020-05-22T12:59:21.542-07:002020-05-22T12:59:21.542-07:00Talageri ji what is the source of PARGITER's i...Talageri ji what is the source of PARGITER's information regarding Mandhata?<br /><br />Also why did Ramayana mentioned Sarasvati and Sindhu as an eastern river along with Sarayu, Ganga and Yamuna?<br />For people like rajesh kochhar Ramayana occurred in Afghanistan so according to him this makes perfect sense.arish108https://www.blogger.com/profile/13426868500839924438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-46286639723139346322020-05-20T11:40:44.918-07:002020-05-20T11:40:44.918-07:00‘When elephants battle, the grass suffers.’ Power,...‘When elephants battle, the grass suffers.’ Power, ivory and the Syrian elephant<br /><br />https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00758914.2016.1198068<br /><br />There is clear evidence of Asian elephants as far away as Syria. They went extinct by 800 BCE. <br /><br />"Evidence for the Syrian elephant ceased to exist during the 1st millennium BC as textual, pictorial and physical evidence for these animals stops during the second quarter of the 1st millennium BC (Barnett 1982: 74, n. 35; Collon 1977; Miller 1986; Moorey 1994: 119). "Mayuresh Madhav Kelkarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18418844256177729386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-73170086870312774972020-05-20T10:32:07.085-07:002020-05-20T10:32:07.085-07:00Talageri ji is there really no connection between ...Talageri ji is there really no connection between middle east and Indian subcontinent before 2000 BCE.Because again I came across a name of a middle eastern king name"Amar-Sin", where the word Amar means "Immortal", exactly the meaning it's similar sounding Sanskrit word "Amar" has.arish108https://www.blogger.com/profile/13426868500839924438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-196430012200590042020-05-20T02:49:11.405-07:002020-05-20T02:49:11.405-07:00It seems like now Professor Witzel is working on &...It seems like now Professor Witzel is working on "Out of Africa" theory as the description of this book of his "The Origins of the World's Mythologies" stated. According to the description of this book on Amazon he tries to show the mythology and spirituality of all the world's religion have there origin in Africa.arish108https://www.blogger.com/profile/13426868500839924438noreply@blogger.com