tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post3880042447879851010..comments2024-03-26T00:47:55.322-07:00Comments on Shrikant G Talageri: Āryas, Dāsas and Dasyus in the RigvedaShrikant Talagerihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15700049337974422213noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-5931514555096549072021-06-22T06:53:56.126-07:002021-06-22T06:53:56.126-07:00Rigveda is a religious text. It has no historical ...Rigveda is a religious text. It has no historical foundation. It is flooded with myths. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11197643272771345204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-22264630877259908022020-09-12T07:10:26.077-07:002020-09-12T07:10:26.077-07:00Shrikant ji, please elaborate what was situation o...Shrikant ji, please elaborate what was situation of southern indian tribes at that time? where were they during the war? Is it true that most southern indian tribes once lived in afghanistan and baloch and pirak reigons? Why language bruhui is treated along with southern indian language family? ThanksTaulava Kesarihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09773661596246150404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-56444981458615140062020-05-06T06:29:42.180-07:002020-05-06T06:29:42.180-07:00Please post your reply to Arnaud Fournet's rev...Please post your reply to Arnaud Fournet's review of your book. I like to see it. Raghavar Voltorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05388765194273606957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-27167118851681560262020-05-04T18:19:17.580-07:002020-05-04T18:19:17.580-07:00which site?which site?Mayuresh Madhav Kelkarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18418844256177729386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-4468893251368030992020-05-04T18:18:57.148-07:002020-05-04T18:18:57.148-07:00"Iron age began early as 2400 once as evident..."Iron age began early as 2400 once as evident from iron artifacts found in Telangana."<br /><br />Even better. Did not know that. Which sit? Mayuresh Madhav Kelkarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18418844256177729386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-77214745208277654072020-05-04T18:09:04.672-07:002020-05-04T18:09:04.672-07:00Iron age began early as 2400 once as evident from ...Iron age began early as 2400 once as evident from iron artifacts found in Telangana.Abhihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05292044395567931649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-74667045910893237632020-05-04T17:01:27.527-07:002020-05-04T17:01:27.527-07:00Anonymous:
"Its seems as the more and more I...Anonymous:<br /><br />"Its seems as the more and more Indian iron age is getting older.."<br /><br />Have you seen this presentation from Anil Suri?<br />https://youtu.be/NtrgyOOhuKg<br /><br /><br />The iron age in India begins at 1900 BCE and they hypothesize bronze age migrations around 1500 BCE. Besides tin was big in Central Asia at the time and there is no evidence for tin coming in. In Suri's view the lack of tin in India can be used to support OIT. Since tin is needed to make bronze the steppe cultures were emigrates from India where the society had moved into the iron age. <br />https://youtu.be/NtrgyOOhuKgMayuresh Madhav Kelkarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18418844256177729386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-42856686731575202582020-05-04T12:01:06.645-07:002020-05-04T12:01:06.645-07:00Please do, I also like to have a good laugh.Please do, I also like to have a good laugh.Raghavar Voltorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05388765194273606957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-69582751217642114042020-05-04T11:24:38.338-07:002020-05-04T11:24:38.338-07:00Its seems as the more and more Indian iron age is ...Its seems as the more and more Indian iron age is getting older, the farther back in time western scholars push the earlier Rig Veda.Abhihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05292044395567931649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-51019613441262697122020-05-04T11:12:12.035-07:002020-05-04T11:12:12.035-07:00Of course. He had written it in 2009. It was so ch...Of course. He had written it in 2009. It was so cheap that I did not bother to reply to it. But, in 2010, someone sent me an email message about Fournet boasting on some site that I could not reply to his "review".<br />So I immediately wrote a very scathing and abusive reply (sinking to his low level): "A Reply to a Joker's Review of my Book", in which I tore him to pieces. He could not answer it, but made two more attempts to cut me down, to which I exposed his stupidity further.<br /><br />I have the reply, but I suspect it is too polemical and combative to put on the blogspot. However, I am wondering whether I should. Shrikant Talagerihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15700049337974422213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-38660420671500474992020-05-04T08:21:13.354-07:002020-05-04T08:21:13.354-07:00Sir have you checked Arnaud Fournet's review o...Sir have you checked Arnaud Fournet's review of your 2008 book? Below is the link:<br /><br />https://diachronica.pagesperso-orange.fr/TMCJ_vol_2.1_Fournet_Review_of_Talageri.pdf<br />Raghavar Voltorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05388765194273606957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-69374737116005755062020-05-04T04:04:42.329-07:002020-05-04T04:04:42.329-07:00In your opinion Shrikant, why are Western scholars...In your opinion Shrikant, why are Western scholars so vested in keeping this AIT/AMT theory alive?Raghavar Voltorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05388765194273606957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-2237701192416577292020-05-03T16:48:34.834-07:002020-05-03T16:48:34.834-07:00Talagiriji"
Have you considered working with...Talagiriji"<br /><br />Have you considered working with Vasant Shinde and Niraj Rai in putting forward a complete book of textual, linguistic, archaeological and genetic evidence for the OIT?Mayuresh Madhav Kelkarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18418844256177729386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-75390804988950044732020-05-03T12:35:50.324-07:002020-05-03T12:35:50.324-07:00It seems that Western scholarship is slowly leanin...It seems that Western scholarship is slowly leaning to Talageri's analysis. Take the Rig Veda date for example. First Max Mueller dated it to 1200 BCE. Then it was the classic 1500/1400 BCE. Now it is 1700 BCE. And I believe Witzel has placed Older Rig Veda as early as 1900 BCE. See the pattern?Abhihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05292044395567931649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-63919230982959463332020-05-03T06:07:31.244-07:002020-05-03T06:07:31.244-07:00The Puranas locate all the tribes in India as desc...The Puranas locate all the tribes in India as descendants of "ten sons of Manu Vaivasvata", who include Ila and Ikshvaku, who represent the Lunar and Solar race; but they only elaborate on the branches of these two "sons". The "five sons of Yayati" appear long down the Puranic Lunar line. The "five tribes" of the Rigveda are obviously the inspiration for the names of the five sons of Yayati in the Puranas. We cannot literally take these tribes as "descendants" of some person named in the Puranas. But we can take the descriptions of the locations of these five great tribes, given in the Puranas, since it fits in exactly with the Rigvedic evidence. We should take the Puranic data as providing broad guidelines about the different tribes of India (certainly in analyzing the Vedic data), and not as literal lists of the exact descent of tribes from actual "ancestors", name by name from father to son. Pargiter, who analysed the Puranic data, realized that the earlier people were all in the east and that any "movement" was an east-to-west movement, but, as he accepted that "aryans came from outside" he tried to show that they all came from the north of the Himalayas. Other western scholars ignore the Puranic data completely or derive the Puranic dynasties from the Vedic people who were invaders from the northwest.<br /><br />The Rigveda is the text initially of one subtribe (Bharata) of one Great Tribe (the Purus). How can it be the starting point of Indian history when it is clear from the Rigvedic data itself that the other Puranic tribes already existed to their east and west? Shrikant Talagerihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15700049337974422213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-20776825234081544732020-05-03T04:04:36.605-07:002020-05-03T04:04:36.605-07:00Thats very interesting. So what you saying is that...Thats very interesting. So what you saying is that the Rig Veda is not the starting point of recorded Indian history but rather its only a midpoint, probably a couple thousand years have past when the Rig Veda was first composed after these tribes actually settle down.<br /><br />Here comes an interesting question, then where do the Puranas locate these Vedic tribes prior to the Rig Vedic composition? According to the Puranas these five tribes are supposedly descendant from Pururavas.<br /><br />How do the Western scholar interpret the Puranas if the Puranas themselves locate all these tribes further east?Raghavar Voltorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05388765194273606957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-23466885035254080362020-05-03T02:46:30.669-07:002020-05-03T02:46:30.669-07:00The Avesta is a much later text. Most of the Gods ...The Avesta is a much later text. Most of the Gods and nature myths of the Rigveda (retained even in European mythologies) are lost and new terminologies have taken over, so there is no direct reference to Purus or Bharatas as enemies. Whatever common data is there has already been discussed by Iranologists, except that they blindly place the events in Central Asia in a pre-Rigvedic period.<br /><br />The Rigvedic people used the word Dasa for the Iranians (Anus)in particular and also for all-non-Purus.<br /><br />No-one can always explain why, in the course of history, people choose names and change names. I always take available examples from my own community to illustrate any point: both Chitrapur Saraswats and Gowd Saraswats in Karnataka speak Konkani (and therefore are Konkanis), but, for unknown reasons, Chitrapur Saraswats refer to Gowd Saraswats as "Konknyanche" (Konkanis). Who can go back into the past to find out the logic behind such things?<br /><br /> Shrikant Talagerihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15700049337974422213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-51200400471559400002020-05-03T02:33:20.138-07:002020-05-03T02:33:20.138-07:00There is no reference to the Druhyu wars in the Ri...There is no reference to the Druhyu wars in the Rigveda, because it is all pre-Rigvedic. It is recorded in the Puranas, and I have given the references in every single book and article of mine concerning the Druhyu migrations.<br /><br />The Varshagira war is found recorded only in IV.30.18 which refers to the battle beyond the Sarayu and I.100 which mentions some of the participants, who include Sahadeva on the Bharata side and the Shimyus in the oppostion. The Iranian texts record some garbled details, and, in different places mention Hushdiv (Huzdaeva) and Humayaka (Sahadeva and Somaka), and such as they are, I have given the details in my book (TALAGERI 2000:2015-220). If I want to go further in this much more research of the Iranian material will be required, and I don't want to put up a garbled or hashed-up job.Shrikant Talagerihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15700049337974422213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-60612037745714249342020-05-03T02:28:04.862-07:002020-05-03T02:28:04.862-07:00Dear Shrikantji, This is a very interesting concep...Dear Shrikantji, This is a very interesting concept and the logic is very appealing. <br />Any reason why when Purus have the tribe name Anus, they should also use Dasa?<br />Also like you have reference of Anus as Dasas in the Rig Veda, does the Avesta have any reference to Purus in any way?Arunabha Royhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07277522351240420582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-8794147582699624372020-05-03T00:25:31.793-07:002020-05-03T00:25:31.793-07:00Well thanks, I didn't know about this. I hones...Well thanks, I didn't know about this. I honestly thought that the dasarajna war was a contemporary battle.<br /><br />To my knowledge there are references to three kinds of wars in the Rig Veda:<br /><br />1. Druhyu war<br />2. Dasrajna war<br />3. Varsagira War<br /><br />The Puranas should have made some kind of reference to any of these three historical wars that took place. I find it very strange that they don't.<br /><br />Sir, you mostly make reference to the Dasrajna war but not the other two to that extant. Is is possible if you can write a blog that discusses the two wars in detail and if its supported in the Puranas?Raghavar Voltorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05388765194273606957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-88286315606706939192020-05-02T17:26:56.114-07:002020-05-02T17:26:56.114-07:00No, which shows why we must be careful before trea...No, which shows why we must be careful before treating Puranic information as the base for interpreting the Rigveda historically. The Rigveda contains incidental data which appears without motive, while the Puranas contain narratives meant to be treated as history; the Puranas deal with the whole of northern India, and contain very much later interpolations, and are heavily mixed with myths (of a different kind from the nature myths of the Rigveda).<br /><br />The dasarajna battle was the most important single event in the Rigveda, and its international historical repercussions make it very important for our analysis today. But to the Rigvedic people themselves, it was an ancient event of ancestral times, already half-forgotten except for the two-three hymns which referred to it half-heartedly.In fact, it is just mentioned once in passing in the Atharvaveda 20.128.12, and later Vedic texts retain garbled memories of the event: <br /><br />Witzel notes: “It is interesting to note that later texts show confusion about the participants in the battle, notably JB 3.244 which speaks of Pratrd instead of his descendant Sudas”. [These “later texts” include the other Samhitas:] “the shifting of the tradition (has) already (taken place) in the early YV Samhitas: MS 3.40.6, JB. 3.244, PB 15.3.7 have substituted other names for Sudas and Vasishtha”’ ... “even these relatively early texts manage to garble the evidence. Thus the JB (§205) calls Sudas Ksatra, while KS 21.10:50.1 has Pratardana and MS 37.7 Pratardana Daivodasi” (WITZEL 1995b :335,340).Shrikant Talagerihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15700049337974422213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-38624543702236397852020-05-02T14:55:14.982-07:002020-05-02T14:55:14.982-07:00Do the Puranas ever mentioned the Daśarājñá war?Do the Puranas ever mentioned the Daśarājñá war?Raghavar Voltorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05388765194273606957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-5027600474428134692020-05-02T09:55:30.020-07:002020-05-02T09:55:30.020-07:00I don't think so. there are people who have un...I don't think so. there are people who have undertaken this kind of exercise, and arrived at different lists. We have innumerable names in the Rigveda, many of which seem to have no context (or have had artificial contexts manufactured later) in other later texts: the Asvin hymns have lists of people rescued by them in the seas or given medical aid of some kind, there are names of peoples and tribes destroyed by Indra, there are many danastutis which name otherwise unknown kings. It is also not easy to decide which of these names are of individuals, which are of tribes, and which are of mythical atmospheric demons. Also, only someone having great knowledge of the Vedic language, and who goes through every verse, may be able to uncover most of the names: see how the translators of the Rigveda (western and Indian) sometimes translate the same words differently: some as names and some with the literal meaning. Thus Kavi cayamana and the Prithu-Parshu, for example, are not found in Griffith's translations. It would not be my cup of tea.Shrikant Talagerihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15700049337974422213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-58978411825085497222020-05-02T04:54:56.859-07:002020-05-02T04:54:56.859-07:00Dear Shrikant Talageri ji, can you write a blog th...Dear Shrikant Talageri ji, can you write a blog that lists all the tribes that are mentioned in the Rig Veda and who are they exactly. It be great to have all the tribes listed in one place. Thank You.Raghavar Voltorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05388765194273606957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-74481084846178156962020-05-02T02:04:46.054-07:002020-05-02T02:04:46.054-07:00The article is just a garbled mass of hate-opinion...The article is just a garbled mass of hate-opinions and quotations. It treats the dāsas and dasyus as exactly the same, and treats all the epithets of dasyus as epithets of both dāsas and dasyus. Funniest is when he says that the dāsas and dasyus are called brahma-dvishah in five verses: V.42.9; VIII.45.23; X.36.9; 160.4; 182.3. In fact the words dāsa and dasyu are totally absent in all these five hymns!<br />The only thing I got was the reference to anrc in X.105.8, which refers to dasyus but not exactly in the same verse: dasyus are referred to in verses 7 and 11. Shrikant Talagerihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15700049337974422213noreply@blogger.com