tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post4507378772914179825..comments2024-03-26T00:47:55.322-07:00Comments on Shrikant G Talageri: Manasataramgini on the Aryan Invasion TheoryShrikant Talagerihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15700049337974422213noreply@blogger.comBlogger120125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-71759398801012822702022-06-07T11:26:01.068-07:002022-06-07T11:26:01.068-07:00Sir, an anti-Hindu woman on Quora was saying that ...Sir, an anti-Hindu woman on Quora was saying that nishada, magadha, suta and vratya - terms that denote offsprings of intercaste marriage were first mentioned in the purusha medha yajna of Yajurveda and this is a proof that a rigid birth based system was being followed from the Vedic period itself. But apart from a verse in chandogya Up, I don't think there are any caste related negative remarks in "Vedopanishads", and if puru bharatas didn't have reincarnation concept I don't know on what basis they could believe in the birth based caste system. This thing is really bugging me so requesting your opinion on this one.Anonymous https://www.blogger.com/profile/02957013804320279978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-46682046177228086802019-05-19T10:18:25.762-07:002019-05-19T10:18:25.762-07:00As a highly ritualistic Tamil Brahmin, let me firs...As a highly ritualistic Tamil Brahmin, let me first of all put this on record. Neither I nor people of my ilk take any pride from being related to Europeans or any other racial profiles of colonial provenance. I understand that this anonymous person has invited well deserved wrath for calling you and people like you "idiots". It is absolutely unforgivable when blatant name calling is resorted to, by one whose true identity is safely hidden under an alias. The second red flag in "mental-wave's" blog is the sheer number of complicated words used. My English is fairly good, but even I was left befuddled by the sheer level of gobbledegookery resorted to by this person. The third red flag is the use of the royal pronoun which either implies the presence of multiple personalities and the associated disorder within this particular host or the presence of a brobdingnagian ego. It is precisely for these reasons that you should NOT have responded to this anonymous provocateur. Ghosts need not be acknowledged. Having said that, in the interest of balance your own arguments would have had more weight if you had refrained from Brahmin bashing (and agni mocking) which has become an art-form in intellectual academia. When the main thrust of your argumentation is based on linguistics, it is useful to have more than a nodding acquaintance without depending on foundations provided by others of unsure political motivations. Niranjanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07475980863859303946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-64155373573787164322019-01-22T14:03:27.442-08:002019-01-22T14:03:27.442-08:00Geneticists have begun using old bones to make swe...Geneticists have begun using old bones to make <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/magazine/ancient-dna-paleogenomics.html" rel="nofollow">sweeping claims about the distant past</a>.Paganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04230663534687606842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-30573031478502736942018-10-18T04:15:17.434-07:002018-10-18T04:15:17.434-07:00Sir, First I thank you for the reply.your way of r...Sir, First I thank you for the reply.your way of research by using the meters of rigvedic hymns are really significant. Your findings of old, middle and new books in Rig Vedas are noteworthy. Also you are the first man in our history to reveal the composers of rigvedic hymns as "Purus". Really if your research had appeared before the period of Dr.Ambedkar, he would have got better supportive arguments and better understanding about the social organization of Indo-Aryan society. He registered his dissatisfaction about the less known factors of Indo-Aryan society. Anyhow you disclosed the facts about the rigvedic Aryans. And for that our future historians should thank for you. I would like your knowledge should not be stopped only for proving OIT theory. It should be used in other ways which is useful to our country. We have number of ancient literatures which had filled-up with lot of interpolations and distorted versions as in your words. Why don't you use your knowledge in such matters? These Hindu fundamentalist leads the country in a wrong direction by using these interpolated versions and propagate these versions as real and original. These unscientific results pull back our progress. Since you are unbiased in your research your results will be given much importance and impact to reveal the truth. It is your historical duty and service for our country. Disclose the distorted versions and interpolations contained in our ancient literatures in your way of research and clear the misconceptions of the common masses beliefs. Best wishes..Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04920233427860839615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-79011495943252759652017-12-29T17:26:49.704-08:002017-12-29T17:26:49.704-08:00Rather than "religious, political and money p...Rather than "religious, political and money power", I should have said "mental-control, muscle and money power" Shrikant Talagerihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15700049337974422213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-9771817854695480302017-12-29T17:24:11.704-08:002017-12-29T17:24:11.704-08:00Every society in the world develops into classes, ...Every society in the world develops into classes, the priestly class, the ruling class, the commercial class and the others. The first three classes are the powerful ones, which exercise power through religious, political and money power respectively. In the development of Indian civilization, somehow, the original patterns of different tribes got carried forward into the class structure, and instead of individuals it was entire tribes which got fitted into the structure. There was constant mobility between the classes, but, as in every society, the privileged sections tried to preserve their privileges by institutionalizing their privileged position, and it is not clear when exactly the system became frozen as it is today. It is a fluid, complex and complicated story, but has nothing to do with "shudra kings".Shrikant Talagerihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15700049337974422213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-89165669981990781022017-12-29T07:25:23.496-08:002017-12-29T07:25:23.496-08:00Cretins and Mlechhas like you will crawl back into...Cretins and Mlechhas like you will crawl back into the caves where you came from, once IVC DNA is published, and comes out to be R1a - Z93.Samurai Jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00522324215317108756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-76596686153814502532017-12-29T07:23:34.413-08:002017-12-29T07:23:34.413-08:00I don't see where Talageri Sir has done any &q...I don't see where Talageri Sir has done any "character assassination", as you falsely accuse him of : http://yugaparivartan.com/2016/05/15/the-crab-mentality-of-hindu-right-wing/Samurai Jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00522324215317108756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-79398270202151450192017-09-30T01:16:56.724-07:002017-09-30T01:16:56.724-07:00Sir, could you please reveal the truth behind the ...Sir, could you please reveal the truth behind the varna shudras.As per Dr.Ambedkar shudras were not mentioned in the Vedas except Purusha sukta which was interpolated later in rigvedas.He suggest the name Shudra might be a clan name initially & then later it converted into fourth varna due to conflicts with Shudra kings and brahmanas. I would like to know about your opinion.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04920233427860839615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-64527961445988733302017-06-09T11:48:43.262-07:002017-06-09T11:48:43.262-07:00This is any easy response: They just haven't f...This is any easy response: They just haven't found any chariots there. Do you think every archaeological discovery has been found? Also, why Rig Veda doesn't mention any river name outside of India?<br />Prithvihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01271990250617887435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-38557892742222593472017-06-09T11:22:11.044-07:002017-06-09T11:22:11.044-07:00This is any easy response: They just haven't f...This is any easy response: They just haven't found any chariots there. Do you think every archaeological discovery has been found? Also, why Rig Veda doesn't mention any river name outside of India?<br />Prithvihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01271990250617887435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-24591798930422845902017-02-28T16:42:07.252-08:002017-02-28T16:42:07.252-08:00Yagna, What is wrong with you. Srikant Talageri ha...Yagna, What is wrong with you. Srikant Talageri has written three books, numerous blogs providing evidence for OIT. He has not only provided proper correlation on entire indology research for over 200 years but also has presented numerous new evidences in books and articles like "how the names in the new books of RV are similar to the indo-iranian, mittani names but not the names in the old books of RV"(just one example I have quoted), Either you have not read his works or lack scholarly aptitude to comprehend what is written in there!hanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09893248416915207327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-41637876922852158062016-08-14T13:24:02.736-07:002016-08-14T13:24:02.736-07:00Turvasu is related to Danavas like Kalayavana, sal...Turvasu is related to Danavas like Kalayavana, salva etc. <br /><br />http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01085.htmAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-30476235994680249922016-07-24T17:58:05.491-07:002016-07-24T17:58:05.491-07:00"Please tell me the DNA formation which place..."Please tell me the DNA formation which places the Sinhal, the Scandinavian and the American negro in one DNA grouping distinct from the Tamilian, the Finn and the Ethiopian"<br /><br />Not sure what you are asking on DNA. These seem pretty random samples. But if you were to present blind samples of modern finns, africans, sinhalese etc to a DNA lab, they would be able to resolve their coarse regional affiliation quite reliably.<br /><br />Btw "american negro" is considered highly offensive. African american is the right term.<br /><br />What is more interesting are ancient DNA samples. An increasing numbers of samples mainly from europe have been tested so far. These have demonstrated for example migration of farmers from levant and anatolia and also a "yamnaya like" migration/influence as well. The details are slowly getting resolved. The picture in asia in less clear due to lack of sampling. But recently ancient samples from western Iran have also been tested and published.<br /><br />postneohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09364121752386612217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-63562999084089401312016-07-24T01:08:42.806-07:002016-07-24T01:08:42.806-07:00About "Alinas" and "Hellenes",...About "Alinas" and "Hellenes", this is not an isolated P.N.Oak-like identification. It is part of a solid package, as i will show in the third part of the article that I will be uploading on this blogsite within a week or two. In any case, "Alina" cannot in any way be a Rigvedic name, since the older parts of the Rigveda (as well as the Avesta) did not have the letter "l" but only "r", which is represented in Greek by "l". Shrikant Talagerihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15700049337974422213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-83680116476354452942016-07-24T01:02:18.719-07:002016-07-24T01:02:18.719-07:00There is no "probability of error" at al...There is no "probability of error" at all in respect of the majority of the Mitanni names. The "atithi" names (Biriatti, Mittaratti, Asuratti, Mariatti, Suriatti, Dewatti, Intaratti, Paratti, Suatti, etc), the "Priya-" names (Biriasauma, Biriasura, Biriawaza, Biriatti, Biriassuva, Biriamasda, Biriasena, etc.), or the name Indarota, are all "rock solid" identifications: some of the exact forms are there in the Rigveda: Mitratithi, Devatithi, Priyamedha, Indrota, etc. No-one is going through any disputed "exercise of re-interpretation" about the identity of these names: it is only their position in the Rigveda (found only in the Late Books) that has not been noticed; and now that I have pointed it out, no-one has yet disputed it (they can't anyway, because their distribution only in the Late Books is a matter of indisputable fact)!<br /><br />Please tell me the DNA formation which places the Sinhal, the Scandinavian and the American negro in one DNA grouping distinct from the Tamilian, the Finn and the Ethiopian. Shrikant Talagerihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15700049337974422213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-3682549909154966152016-07-23T23:13:22.112-07:002016-07-23T23:13:22.112-07:00First of all I am an admirer of your books as well...First of all I am an admirer of your books as well an article on comparative mythology. You have already dredged and brought a good amount of fresh data to a moribund field. So you are something of a pioneer. <br /><br />What I am saying is we need more !<br /><br />One way for me to help is to point out weaknesses and poke holes.<br /><br />An example is you said the Alinas are hellenes. Is there something more diagnostic of greeks than the single word? It would help to reduce the probability of a false positive.<br /><br />"it is rock solid data accepted by all streams of serious scholars". <br /><br />The "serious scholars", have a probability of error, which is why the we all are going thru this exercise of re-interpretation in the first place.<br /><br />On the Mitanni front, apart from the horse manual and reference to 4 vedic gods, we just have king lists with a lot of sound shift. Its a far cry from inscriptions/literature which is why I termed them as fuzzy.<br /><br />DNA has no bearing on language but it does have a bearing on human migrations. Right now it is still inconclusive on major migrations both from and to the subcontinent.<br />postneohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09364121752386612217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-40514182718340235142016-07-23T20:54:37.787-07:002016-07-23T20:54:37.787-07:00Further, in reply to your last statement, "DN...Further, in reply to your last statement, "DNA" and "astronomy" have nothing concrete to show on the IE question in any direction, and I do not want to get into fruitless discussions on those two topics. Linguistics, archaeology and textual/inscriptional analysis are the only fields to study. Comparative mythology, yes - see my chapters on the subject in my first two books - but non-IE mythologies, again, have little (I wont say "nothing") to contribute in the solution of the IE question. Shrikant Talagerihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15700049337974422213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-57067328180514600382016-07-23T20:48:01.481-07:002016-07-23T20:48:01.481-07:00I am sorry if you do not find the arguments "...I am sorry if you do not find the arguments "clinching". But your claim that the Mitanni data is "sparse fuzzy data" is incredible: it is rock solid data accepted by all streams of serious scholars.<br /><br />If you find my books consist only of "poking holes" in existing arguments and do not provide "fresh data", I must say you leave me tongue-tied. I can say nothing in reply!<br /><br />However, I don't want to keep repeating my arguments and the facts ad nauseum each time someone asks me the same questions again and again or raises the same points again and again. I am now placing the main evidence on my blogsite in a four part article entitled "The Recorded History of the Indo-European migrations", of which I have already uploaded the first part three days or so ago, and will be uploading the second part by tomorrow. I will answer specific points in comments on those (four parts of that) article. Shrikant Talagerihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15700049337974422213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-41130892183923144252016-07-23T19:54:11.806-07:002016-07-23T19:54:11.806-07:00Dear Shri Talageri,
I have read all your books. I...Dear Shri Talageri,<br /><br />I have read all your books. I consider them essential reading. Its a plausible even likely scenario. However I cannot term the arguments as "clinching". For example your comparison of Mitanni names vs late Vedic relies on a rather sparse fuzzy data set. It's still a huge upgrade from building castles from single word/syllable associations from the like of Witzel and traditional Indologists.<br /><br />We really need to dredge for fresh data instead of wasting too much bandwidth on refutation of arguments that were fuzzy to start with. Poking holes in mainstream linguistics is not "clinching" since they were never ironclad to start with. Finally the theory has to stand on its own not through refutation.<br /><br />DNA is one such area. Comparative mythology is another(we cannot stop at just IE here).postneohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09364121752386612217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-57134632837463241482016-07-23T19:31:16.538-07:002016-07-23T19:31:16.538-07:00Just introduced to this blog.
Jijnasu made a comm...Just introduced to this blog.<br /><br />Jijnasu made a comment about morphological diversity of IE being low inside the subcontinent. We need to question the fact whether diversity actually signifies a homeland or not. It is not conclusive. Diversity may also be due to geograpical barriers such as the caspian and black seas, caucasus mountains, that bottle necked and separated different IE speaking groups in space and time subjecting them to different substrates, adstrates.<br /><br />The other point, also made by Bryant is that the typical diversity argument by indologists is made by comparing modern european languages with sanskrit. If it was NIA vs non IE branches the comparison would be more even. <br /><br />Some obvious words in NIA seem more archaic that classical sanskrit/vedic. Take for example the word for crab in NIA it "appears" is more latin shifted than classical sanskrit. I suspect, NIA has not been adequately researched by linguists apart from claiming that all IE in NIA stems from sanskrit.<br /><br />@Vibhakar: can you tell us more about the Antiochus reference.postneohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09364121752386612217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-9846264522564369972016-06-19T10:44:15.911-07:002016-06-19T10:44:15.911-07:00It appears that the author of this blog does not d...It appears that the author of this blog does not disagree with the mainsteam view point that chariots were invented around 2000 B.C.E he suggests that the term was laterally transfered between neighbouring IE dialects rather than inherited from a common ancestor though he give no linguistic details for such transfers. The crux of his answers it appears are the name concordances between what he identifies as the late rig Veda, the avesta and the mittani documents. <br /><br />I will discuss the genetic evidence particularly w.r.t MT's viewpoint in this same comment. I hope the author of this blog will read this as well. As I have said before it has been demonstrated that modern Indians are genetically a combination an indigenous group ASI with a hypothetical west eurasian population the ANI. As you have rightly pointed out not all ANI need be of steppe ie Indo-Aryan origin. MT has boldly on the basis of cultural evidence suggested that most of this west eurasian ancestry is of steppe origin and it appears he is partially correct. (There is no need to resort to the theoretical components any longer as a large amount of data from ancient DNA is now available) It now appears that the population history of India is as follows : 1) An ancient population distinct from both west and east eurasians yet slightly closer to the latter settled India early in its history and remained isolated through the ice age<br />2) Farmers from iran brought livestock rearing and a wheat & barley based agriculture to NW India and established the mehrgarh neolithic. These individuals with a small amount of admixture with native hunter-gatherers were the inhabitants of IVC (A recent poster for the conference where IVC DNA paper will be presented seems to suggest this)<br />3)Around 4000 yrs ago the IVC began to decay possibly due to climate change and perhaps disease. Steppe pastoralists practicing managed to establish their dominance over the previous farmers, mixed with them and expanded southward and eastward mixing with proto-Indian (ASI) HGs on the way. It appears they have contributed significantly to the ANI component of our ancestry, even more so than the farmer who preceded them. It appears (as per latest evidence) that even Malas a Telugu 'untouchable' caste has around 18% steppe ancestry, peaking at 50% in the Kalasha and perhaps even higher in Tajiks.<br />Assuming that the Aryans had assimilated some central asian groups during their migration and accounting for drift in modern populations their contribution may be a little higher<br />Iran has been sampled and this is the link to a recent paper http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/06/16/059311<br />All that's left are samples from IVC, BMAC and Gandhara Grave Culture and all I can say is things look very very bad for the OIT at presentbharatiyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10396356055021082007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-63984785394331255442016-06-17T12:14:53.336-07:002016-06-17T12:14:53.336-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02328596267987869062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-13450338071961226832016-06-17T11:47:56.550-07:002016-06-17T11:47:56.550-07:00Mr. Talageri, this is not my only argument but I w...Mr. Talageri, this is not my only argument but I would move onto others only after you bring any evidence for horses and carts drawn by them in UP before 2000 BCE.<br /><br />Are you aware that Mahabharata knows Antioch in Syria?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02328596267987869062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-28170733714233519922016-06-17T11:44:20.348-07:002016-06-17T11:44:20.348-07:00Pick up my challenge. Show me one 'irrefutable...Pick up my challenge. Show me one 'irrefutable' evidence of horses and carts drawn by them in UP before 2000 BCE. I know you would hide behind excuses like UP has hot and humid weather etc. but this is no answer. I might say that chariots were there in UP in 20,000 BCE and can also say that they have not survived due to UP weather.<br /><br />Being a bank employee or Hindu nationalist has no bearing on debate but yes not knowing Sanskrit is indeed one of your weak points. Infact, mere knowledge of Sanskrit is not enough, one should atleast have command over IE linguistics to say with confidence on these matters. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02328596267987869062noreply@blogger.com