tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post6643795395019202509..comments2024-03-26T00:47:55.322-07:00Comments on Shrikant G Talageri: The Recorded History of the Indo-European Migrations - Part 2 of 4 The Chronology and Geography of the RigvedaShrikant Talagerihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15700049337974422213noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-77517308531902587502019-09-12T13:21:36.278-07:002019-09-12T13:21:36.278-07:00Great work sir. Just ordered 2 of your books today...Great work sir. Just ordered 2 of your books today.vAsiSThahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812352482004389085noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-87172098418886925682018-05-29T21:43:00.691-07:002018-05-29T21:43:00.691-07:00Thanks for the explanation. Btw I have read both o...Thanks for the explanation. Btw I have read both of your books. But since it's long time ago I just can't remember this part. So thought of asking you directly. Once again thanks.arish108https://www.blogger.com/profile/13426868500839924438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-36278598743267150542018-05-29T09:19:07.701-07:002018-05-29T09:19:07.701-07:00Dear Shrikant Talageri,
There is another support ...Dear Shrikant Talageri,<br /><br />There is another support for the theory that family books could be older than Harappa. I searched the word for spoked wheel and I only found in HYMN CLXIV. Viśvedevas , according to Griffith's translation. If you look for wheel, you will find it that it looks like the description of the typical Sumerian car, which had a solid wheel, because the description often compares with non hollow objects.<br /><br />Do you think this is reasonable?Daniel de França MTd2https://www.blogger.com/profile/01281817409696805377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-44025470679980189932018-05-29T08:56:43.514-07:002018-05-29T08:56:43.514-07:00You may not have read my books, but see the follow...You may not have read my books, but see the following in my blog "Two papers by the Renowned Indologist...":<br /><br />"Here, let me deal only with the word “vadhryaśvá”:<br /><br />a) Hopkins in his article “Prāgāthikāni” (JAOS 1896) clearly states that the aśva names are late names found only in the Late books.<br /><br />b) The Vedic Word Concordance of Vishwa Bandhu, in its Uttarapadānukrama Sūcī clearly excludes vadhri- (on page 3622) from the list of prefixes of the word aśva on grammatical grounds, and places the word Vadhryaśvá as a separate un-hyphenated word (A Grammatical Word Index to the Four Vedas, Volume 2, 1963, pg.835) on its own. Grammatically the word just does not fall in the same category as the numerous aśva names in the Late Books.<br /><br />c) Vadhryaśvá is not a name (of Divodāsa’s father) at all. It is a derisive epithet (used for him) and is totally unrelated to the later aśva names. It is mentioned in this sense in the only reference in the Family Books. The flood of aśva names in the Late Rigvedic Period led to confusion not only among the later redactors of the Purāṇas and the gotrakāras, but even among the editors of the Anukramaṇīs of the Rigveda, who reasoned backwards and treated Vadhryaśvá as a name. Before Hock gives this the horse laugh, let him note the following facts:<br /><br />c-i) Vadhryaśvá means “eunuch” or “impotent”, and no sane parents would name their son a eunuch.<br /><br />c-ii) The word is used in Rigveda VI.62.7 in reference to Divodāsa’s father (probably Srnjaya, as many analysts of the Vedas and Purāṇas have claimed Srnjaya was Divodāsa’s father), and the reference makes it very clear that Divodāsa’s father is derided as impotent and childless. The verse states that an impotent person finally got a child, Divodāsa, with the special blessings of Sarasvati (note the parallel case of Abraham and Sarah in the Old Testament). This is confirmed and paralleled by references in the Rigveda itself (I.116.13, 117.24; X. 39.7, 65.12) to a Vadhrimatī, translated correctly as the wife (like Divodāsa’s mother) of an impotent person, who similarly gets a child with the special blessings of the Aśvins."Shrikant Talagerihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15700049337974422213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-5614092890445237872018-05-28T23:30:38.045-07:002018-05-28T23:30:38.045-07:00Sir you have said that certain name types with spe...Sir you have said that certain name types with specific prefixes and suffixes like -aśva occurs only in the late books(5,1,8,9,10) but not in the older one(2,3,4,6,7). But in RigVeda 6.61.1 the name Vadhryasva(suffix -aśva ) father of Divodāsa appear. arish108https://www.blogger.com/profile/13426868500839924438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-31795983166754539232017-05-26T20:27:22.874-07:002017-05-26T20:27:22.874-07:00Namaste! A wonderful write-up!! Looking forwar...Namaste! A wonderful write-up!! Looking forward for the next part!!!drynraohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10088764611436157373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-51991598722696331832017-04-11T09:59:19.350-07:002017-04-11T09:59:19.350-07:00Namaste Talageriji. Great research. Please post th...Namaste Talageriji. Great research. Please post the next two parts as well.Pentihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08802126047088161830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-20924348014962830222017-04-01T17:15:50.561-07:002017-04-01T17:15:50.561-07:00Here is one scientific research paper, which suppo...Here is one scientific research paper, which supports your thesis that Mesopotamians were linked with India in the past. I hope the truth will prevail in the end.<br /><br />"mtDNA from the Early Bronze Age to the Roman Period Suggests a Genetic Link between the Indian Subcontinent and Mesopotamian Cradle of Civilization"<br /><br />http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0073682<br />TruthPrevailshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05940335303424029794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-41790890177734526562017-01-06T07:48:25.708-08:002017-01-06T07:48:25.708-08:00It is obvious that this contact between the Purus ...It is obvious that this contact between the Purus (Vedic Aryans) and the Hittites was during the period when the proto-Hittite Druhyus were still in Central Asia to the nortwest of Bactria (the "Uttara-madra" people of Puranic memory)before they migrated westwards and southwards into Turkey.Shrikant Talagerihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15700049337974422213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-36708358850150010112017-01-06T05:44:52.459-08:002017-01-06T05:44:52.459-08:00Sir, it is incredible and yet convincing that the ...Sir, it is incredible and yet convincing that the Hittite, the first branch to leave the Urmheimet, remined truthful to culture of the last tribe remaining in the homeland. So much so that they even adopted Indra. It is also clear from Isoglosses that the Hittites must have belonged to the Druhyu tribal confederation.<br /><br />And yet we find that the Hittites named their city as "Purushanda" or "Purushattum". <br /> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purushanda<br /><br />Would it be correct to infer that the Hittites who where Druhyus adopted even the word "Purusha" from the Purus, their former enemies?<br /><br />Some interesting points you raised in the "Rig Veda and Avesta",<br /><br />""Incidentally, it is interesting that an allegedly Central Asian word from this recklessly insolent list, Indra, should be found not only ―at the center of much of Vedic‖ religion, and not even just in the Mitanni IA language, but even in Hittite: the only known Indo-European myth found in Hittite mythology is about the Hittite god Inar who slays the Great Serpent who is placing obstacles in the activity of the Hittite rain-god(see LAROUSSE 1959:.85). So, according to Witzel, the Hittites also passed through Bactria-Margiana on their way to Anatolia]."""------"""The Larousse Encyclopaedia of Mythology records, as the only Indo-European myth still extant among the Hittites, the myth of the Great Serpent who had dared to attack the weather-god (name unknown) and who was subsequently killed by Inar. This is clearly a version of the killing of Vṛtra by Indra in the Rigveda. The Larousse Encyclopaedia actually describes Inar as ―Inar, a God who had come from India with the IndoEuropean Hittites‖ (LAROUSSE 1959:85). ""<br /><br />Sir, have you found any evidence of how this cultural contact was maintained between the Anatolians and the Indo Aryans? Was it trade contacts or is there any clue that the Hittites were still aware that they originally came from Sapta Sindhu?<br />Acharya Agnimitrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13669429138876787131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-70673751349592417462016-12-29T09:52:40.644-08:002016-12-29T09:52:40.644-08:00Dear Amused: This article of mine contains a huge ...Dear Amused: This article of mine contains a huge mass of evidence all pointing in one direction. The evidence that books 6,3 and 7 are Early Old Books and books 4 and 2 are Middle Old Books is also complete and sweeping. The few points you have mentioned in your blog are not really relevant for the following reasons:<br /><br />[Incidentally, before pointing them out, let me mention that you spell my name wrongly as "Shrikanth Talegiri"].<br /><br />You write "Talegiri uses lineage of sages to refute Witzel's argument for placing book 2 before book 6", as if Witzel is right and I am wrong, but you yourself also conclude that "book 2 must be placed after book 6".<br /><br />However, it appears you are only in disagreement with my placing book 2 after books 3,7 and 4, and want to place it "after book 6 but before books 3,7 and 4". About this:<br /><br />1. You write "only book 2 besides book 6 strictly refers to Bharata kings before Sudas". But actually Divodasa is referred to in books 1,2,4,6,7,8,9; Srnjaya in books 4 and 6; Devavata in books 3,4,6,7.<br /><br />2. You also write "only book 2 and book 6 mention no other lineages besides Bharadvaja and Bhrigu". But this is because book 2 is a very apolitical book which refers to no other family, and also does not refer to any other river except the Sarasvati: books 4 and 2 represent the Middle Old period where book 4 represents the Puru excursion as far west as "beyond the Sarayu" for the first time while book 2 represents the politically meutral stay-at-home Puru priests back east who were concentrating on their rituals and rites on the banks of the Sarasvati, hence their total non-reference to other lineages. Note that no other family book refers to the Gritsamadas either! Wouldn't this also mean all the other family books came before the Gritsamadas by the same logic?<br /><br />3. The historical references to Vitahavya are strictly Puranic references and not relevant in the context of the Rigvedic data.<br /><br />4. In any case, book 2 is so neutral that it makes no difference to our analysis of Rigvedic history: whether it comes before books 3,7 and 4 or after them, it is still an Old Book and does not affect our narration of Rigvedic and Indo-European history. But, as a strictly academic discussion, the above article contains evidence which shows it comes after them (e.g. the Avestan names Tauruuaēti, Gaotəma, Θrita and Kərəsāni, which are common with book 4 but missing in the Early Old Books). <br /> Shrikant Talagerihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15700049337974422213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-35270234310468705212016-12-29T08:11:50.773-08:002016-12-29T08:11:50.773-08:00Please comment my blog on your book 2 relative chr...Please comment my blog on your book 2 relative chronology. http://vedanticselfinquiry.blogspot.in/2016/12/relative-chronology-of-mandala-2-in-rig.html?m=1<br />Krishnakumar Ramamoorthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16204562261392894455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-86589482528226881662016-12-11T06:56:21.012-08:002016-12-11T06:56:21.012-08:00Hello Shrikant Ji,
I am totally impressed on some ...Hello Shrikant Ji,<br />I am totally impressed on some of your writings.<br /><br />I am a student and doing my Phd thesis on Date of the Righ Veda. I like to intrerview via email or via Phone. I will appreciate if you can email me your email at globalams@gmail.com<br /><br />Thanks in advanceR Shahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01245132596752841002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-5830175084303458602016-08-04T07:50:27.660-07:002016-08-04T07:50:27.660-07:00And we must also remember that ouranos in Greek is...And we must also remember that ouranos in Greek is the normal name of the sky, especially as the vault, and not only of the god.<br />There is also the problem of the more archaic dialectal form oranos that reveal that the original sound is o- and not u-.<br />An interpretation is that it comes from wors-an-, where the root wars- means 'to rain': https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BF%E1%BD%90%CF%81%CE%B1%CE%BD%CF%8C%CF%82#Ancient_Greek <br />Maybe also the root war- 'to cover' can be applied in the same way, through *wor-an-os. Giacomo Benedettihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18418729274995219594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-11356093857372582242016-08-01T15:38:14.994-07:002016-08-01T15:38:14.994-07:00vRtra means enveloper. Since this refers to a snak...vRtra means enveloper. Since this refers to a snake, we have in mind a giant constrictor snake, and, indeed, India has many of the largest species constrictor snakes in the world. And it kills by making twists around the victim. <br /><br />Also, it resembles large raining clounds, I think, https://goo.gl/MqCPpK, so people thought that lighting striking them, made them release water. <br /><br />Well, that's what we have for vR. I'd have to find an explanation for "-anous", "-una" and "-tra" Daniel de França MTd2https://www.blogger.com/profile/01281817409696805377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-3541618504755355552016-08-01T14:51:39.684-07:002016-08-01T14:51:39.684-07:00Well, rather than Indic as the source, we should t...Well, rather than Indic as the source, we should think of a common name of a supreme deity, especially Graeco-Aryan, or a loanword from a closer language, Anatolian or Iranian. Giacomo Benedettihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18418729274995219594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-45701457839756743242016-08-01T06:50:23.979-07:002016-08-01T06:50:23.979-07:00In my earlier post the association of tvastar as t...In my earlier post the association of tvastar as twist is bad since the prefix should be dva in Sanskrit <br /><br />Rest i think food for thoughtpostneohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09364121752386612217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-54253822726684918362016-07-31T08:38:07.822-07:002016-07-31T08:38:07.822-07:00Swedes and Norwegians actually retain some retrofl...Swedes and Norwegians actually retain some retroflex flaps. A small subset/early layer of PIE words may have had retroflexion. Nirjhar, if you remember I have compared germanic and fringe NIA cognates missing in conventional PIE.<br /><br />My theory/suspicion is that PIE developed from two parent groups. a western semitic like group that only had dental phonemes and an eastern one with voiced aspirates and a north indian style of retroflexion(word initial retroflex stops etc) and medial flaps, perhaps without a contrasting dental phoneme.<br /><br />Daniel, theres the common NIA word bARA with retroflex flap meaning enclosure or boundary. perhaps related to barrier. it may be related to related words ... see below...<br /><br />vrtra could be related to words like vertex, vortex, writhe, write, wrist(rotation around a point). the word "rotate" itself and of course sanskrit vartana etc as denoting serpentine coils or coiling around a vertex. He is the son of tvastra (twister). An umbilical two ply cord/twine like symbolism.<br /><br />geometrically the outermost coil becomes a boundary. So all these forms could be derived from a common root. It brings to mind english words like "brier: a tangled bush" and "barrier" as well.<br /><br />ouranos has resemblance to the non IE Hurrian god Anu son of alalu. Both are castrated by their respective sons and the spilt seed generates new gods.<br /><br />It seems to be a norm in the epics to make seemingly historic events fit cosmic tropes.<br /><br />Lets remember draupadi's violation by duryodhana's "thigh" and later his "uru" breaking at the hands of bhima. I pointed earlier that one form of the epic has vasuki taking on duryodhana's role during her violation. Perhaps an older form of the epic actually had draupadi mating with a non pandava perhaps a naga or serpent.<br /><br />We will not speak at this point of the symbolism of the kauravas birth seeming to fit the trope of the birth of a brood of serpents in incubation jars, by kadru and sage kashyapa and the rivalry between garuda and the snakes. VEry similar to gandhari also incubating her foetus in a hundred jars.<br /><br />Its a labyrinth and a long haul to work through the symbolism but some patterns seem to emerge. postneohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09364121752386612217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-65347855134293913812016-07-31T06:42:41.529-07:002016-07-31T06:42:41.529-07:00Respected Sir, with the information provided by sc...Respected Sir, with the information provided by scholars like you I have synchronized the history of Vedic and Indus Valley Civilization. <br />https://ithihas.wordpress.com/2013/05/02/the-vedic-civilization-part-i/<br />https://ithihas.wordpress.com/2013/05/04/the-vedic-civilization-part-ii/<br />S.Srinivashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10256629589817101683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-51475068403810246292016-07-30T00:47:29.490-07:002016-07-30T00:47:29.490-07:00It's possible, in my opinion, that the root in...It's possible, in my opinion, that the root in PIE is vR. . For example, in Greek mythology, there is an antagonism between Zeus (new generation) and Ouranous(old generation) for the primacy of the heavens. In the Rig Veda, that's beteween Indra (new generation) and Vṛtra (old generation). The *vR*, can also be of a much older source, which conserves the retroflex, instead the uncertiaon reconstruction of PIE root bellow:<br /><br />There are different versions for the reconstruction, depending on the date is chosen for the wikipedia history <br />https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vala_(Vedic)&oldid=671294349<br />https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vala_(Vedic)&oldid=722775384<br />Daniel de França MTd2https://www.blogger.com/profile/01281817409696805377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-22950112443321151302016-07-29T05:08:21.354-07:002016-07-29T05:08:21.354-07:00I mean data wise , is there any evidence for such ...I mean data wise , is there any evidence for such retroflexion for the specific word? or even in the Germanic languages itself for other similar words ?.Nirjhar007https://www.blogger.com/profile/12880827026479135118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-75457950402747666052016-07-29T05:04:03.450-07:002016-07-29T05:04:03.450-07:00I don't have a time machine.I don't have a time machine.Daniel de França MTd2https://www.blogger.com/profile/01281817409696805377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-14032819873974934162016-07-29T04:49:52.593-07:002016-07-29T04:49:52.593-07:00I don't think ''if'' is a very...I don't think ''if'' is a very scientific word, to draw conclusions. Nirjhar007https://www.blogger.com/profile/12880827026479135118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-28326026348387142382016-07-28T22:41:49.057-07:002016-07-28T22:41:49.057-07:00Wodan can be related to Varuna if the d was origin...Wodan can be related to Varuna if the d was originally a retroflex d (thus, Odin would be originated in India), thus it could easily go to woRann to wodann. The same type of transformations, assuming an original retroflex d, can be said about valinas, coming from veRinas. The i can come from u by influence of umlaut, common in the region https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9C .Daniel de França MTd2https://www.blogger.com/profile/01281817409696805377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7488245879483190185.post-921957778206257902016-07-28T09:38:21.289-07:002016-07-28T09:38:21.289-07:00Yes, they suggest on p.432 :
First Function (sacre...Yes, they suggest on p.432 :<br /><i>First Function (sacred). This deity is primarily in charge of the relationship between humans and sacred order. The equivalencies <b>are Skt (Vedic) Varuna Skt (Maha¯bha¯rata) Pa¯n_d_u Av Ahura Mazda¯h Lat (Livy) Romulus Lat(Livy) Horatio Cocles ON Oðinn OIr Esus Lith Velinas</b>. Both the Roman Horatio Cocles and the Norse Oðinn are closely associated with the<br />loss of one eye.</i><br />But they don't speak of cognate wise relation but of figure wise?.<br />About Kazanas reference , yes , thank you for the info .Nirjhar007https://www.blogger.com/profile/12880827026479135118noreply@blogger.com