Wednesday, 1 July 2026

Murugan, “Aryan”-Dravidian Issues, and Divide-the-Hindus Ideologies

 

Murugan, “Aryan”-Dravidian Issues, and Divide-the-Hindus Ideologies

 Shrikant G. Talageri 

 

Apparently a controversy over the Hindu/Tamil God Murugan has erupted. A simple question on google elicited the following:

Lord Murugan (Karthikeya) is profoundly revered in South India, particularly as the patron deity of the Tamil language and culture (Tamil Kadavul). He has recently become the center of two major controversies: [1, 2, 3]

·         The "God of War" Film Controversy: The announcement of a film featuring actor Jr. NTR and director Trivikram sparked immense outrage. The controversy stemmed from a promotional tagline that claimed the deity was "Born in the North...". Tamil devotees and social media users fiercely objected, stating that Murugan is an indigenous, foundational Tamil deity born in celestial southern mythology, and accused filmmakers of erasing Tamil cultural history. [1, 2, 3, 4]

·         The DMK Government Conference: The ruling Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam (DMK) government in Tamil Nadu faced heavy flak from opposition parties and ideological allies for hosting a grand conference dedicated to Lord Murugan. Critics from secular and leftist factions accused the conventionally rationalist, anti-caste Dravidian party of compromising its secular foundations and trying to appease religious voters. [1, 2]


The “Aryan-Dravidian” controversy in India (apart from the blatantly political aspects) is based on the theory floated by historians that the “Aryans” (speakers of Indo-Aryan/Indo-European languages) invaded, or immigrated into, India somewhere around 1500 BCE, displaced the Dravidian language speakers then allegedly spread out over most of India (and certainly the northwest), more-or-less drove the Dravidian speakers, or at least the languages themselves, southwards and took over their space. This is the AIT or “Aryan Invasion/Immigration Theory”. supported by the academic vested interests, woke and leftist elements, “Dravidian” ideologues from the South, and casteist hate-ideologists from every caste in India.

I need hardly point out that this obnoxious theory has been completely and irrefutably demolished in my books and articles.

However, recently some prominent elements from the opposite side (i.e. the pro-OIT anti-AIT side), including prominent writers and scholars like Jijith Nadumuri Ravi and Koenraad Elst, have started vigorously propagating an opposite theory: the DIT or “Dravidian Invasion/Immigration Theory, according to which speakers of Dravidian languages immigrated into a predominantly existing Indo-Aryan/Indo-European North India during the Vedic period and (even though they are still not being described as displacing Indo-Aryan/Indo-European speakers, since these scholars maintain a silence on the linguistic identity of the people whom they allegedly replaced in South India) passed through the Indo-Aryan/Indo-European areas of North India and colonized the South.

 

The common ideological belief shared by the AIT-supporters and the DIT-supporters is that one of the two language speaking groups (Indo-Aryan/Indo-European and Dravidian) are late entrants into an India already inhabited by the other of the two. The two groups of ideologues only differ about who are the “natives” and who are the “intruders”.

[Another ideological belief, incidentally, shared by the above AIT-supporters and DIT-supporters is that Indian civilization and culture, if not the Indian people themselves, from all parts of India originated and spread from the Harappan areas of the northwest and that the whole rest of India was cultureless or peopleless before this spread!]

 

The question is apparently: is Murugan a purely Tamil God native to Tamilnadu or is he a Northern God?

See the point of controversy: “Tamil devotees and social media users fiercely objected, stating that Murugan is an indigenous, foundational Tamil deity born in celestial southern mythology”.

So far as that goes, perfectly right. In my articles and books, I have put it in very clear terms, the following for example from my article “Are Indian Tribals Hindus?”:

But there was a big difference in the spread of Hinduism all over India and the spread of Christianity all over the world. Unlike Christianity, which demonised the Gods, beliefs and rituals of the religions which it sought to uproot, destroy and supplant, Hinduism accepted and internalised the Gods, beliefs and rituals of the tribal religions which converged into it. The result is that today the most popular Hindu deities in every single part of India are originally tribal Gods: whether Ayyappa of Kerala, Murugan of Tamilnadu, Balaji of Andhra, Vitthala (originally) of Karnataka (Vithoba of Maharashtra), Khandoba of Maharashtra, Jagannatha of Orissa, etc., etc., or the myriad forms of the Mother Goddess, with thousands of names, in every nook and corner of India: every single local (originally tribal) God and Goddess is revered by every Hindu in every corner of India, in the form of the kuladevata, the grihadevata or the gramadevata. In time, of course, myths were formed nominally associating many of these deities with one or the other of the main Gods and Goddesses of Puranic Hinduism as their manifestations, these Puranic Gods themselves being additions from different parts of India to the Hindu pantheon (or originally Vedic Gods like Vishnu and Rudra with basic characteristics adopted from the other local and tribal deities). But these associations were not an imposition “from above”, they were the result of popular local myth-making and part of the consolidation of the national popularization of the local deities: the deities retained their local names, forms, rituals and customs, and became all-India deities, objects of pilgrimages from distant areas.

 

But it is not only in respect of “Gods” and “Goddesses” that Hinduism freely and respectfully adopted from other tribes and religions: even the most basic concepts of the Hindu religion are originally elements adopted from the tribal and local religions from every part of India. The original Puru (Vedic) layer of religion which forms the pan-Indian umbrella of Hinduism was originally more or less the religion depicted in the Rigveda: the worship of Indra, Varuna, Mitra, Agni, Soma, the Maruts and Ashvins, and other specifically Vedic deities (including Vishnu and Rudra, who later become the most important Puranic Gods), and the main religious rituals were the Agni rituals (homa, yadnya, etc.) and the Soma rituals. The Soma rituals are completely defunct today (in fact, no-one knows the exact identity of Soma), the Agni rituals are still performed, but only during major ceremonies (birth, death, weddings, ritual inaugurations of houses, etc.) and on other major occasions, and the major Vedic Gods are minor figures of Puranic stories.   

 

Practically every single basic feature of Hinduism today was adopted from the religious beliefs and rituals of the other, originally tribal, religious traditions of the people from every single corner of India as they all converged into Hinduism. To begin with, Idol-worship which is absolutely the central feature of Hinduism and which includes (a) the worship of the lingam, “rude blocks of stone” with eyes painted on them, or roughly or finely carved or cast images of stone, metal or some other material, (b) treating the idols as living beings (bathing, dressing and feeding them, putting them to sleep, etc.), (c) performing puja by offering flowers, water and fruits, bananas and coconuts, clothes and ornaments to the idols, (d) performing aarti by waving lights and incense before the idols, (e) performing music and dance before the idols, (e) partaking of prasad of food offered to the idols, (f) having idol-temples with elaborate carvings and sculptures, with sacred tanks and bathing ghats, temple festivals with palanquins and chariots, etc. (g) applying sandal-paste, turmeric, vermillion, etc. on the forehead as a mark of the idols, etc. This entire system in all its variations was adopted from the various practices of the people of eastern, central and southern India, along with the Gods and idols themselves.

 

The point is that many of the “Tamil devotees and social media users fiercely objecting” are making this an issue of Tamil-versus-Hindu, and insisting that Murugan is not a Hindu God but a Tamil one! It is as if the people of Orissa were to insist that Jagannatha is not a Hindu God but an Oriya one, or the people of Maharashtra (or Karnataka) were to insist that Vitthala is not a Hindu God but a Marathi (or Kannada) one!

This controversy over Murugan is of a piece with controversies arising from the discoveries of archaeological, and technologically advanced material, evidence from the South. Indo-Aryan/Indo-European protagonists are quick to insist on a northern origin for these discoveries, and “Dravidian” protagonists are quick to paint a separatist and antagonistic-to-the-north identity for them:

https://swarajyamag.com/culture/leave-history-alone-why-an-archaeological-discovery-in-tamil-nadu-has-ruffled-feathers

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2025/01/discovery-of-oldest-iron-in-world-in.html

 

All I can emphasize, without going again and again into things written umpteen times before, is: there is no Tamil/Oriya/Marathi etc. God or religion in India: there are only Hindu Gods and Hindu religion. Whether Murugan, or any other God, is “Tamil” or “Oriya” or “Santali” or “Naga” or “Andamanese”, or ‘Northern” or “Southern”, he is always “Hindu” and always Devil Incarnate and an object of hatred for followers of Abrahamic religions. Hindus: do not fall into the trap and ignite or indulge in intra-Hindu conflicts and hate-campaigns for the benefit of the enemies of Hinduism.

[See how the anti-Hindu forces keep each other in line when any one group among them appears to be straying away even superficially from the anti-Hindu line: "The ruling Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam (DMK) government in Tamil Nadu faced heavy flak from opposition parties and ideological allies for hosting a grand conference dedicated to Lord Murugan." They at least are well aware of what is Hindu and what is not


APPENDIX ADDED 13 July 2026: Imposition From Above?”:

All the local Gods and Goddesses of different parts of India were identified with the main Puranic gods and goddesses slowly acquiring each others' features.

The question can arise: was this an “imposition from ‘above’”?

But that question would be born from a typical Abrahamic and non-Pagan hate-attitude towards the Gods of “other” religions. Actually this synthesis of Gods does not indicate that one powerful culture is imposing itself on another: i.e. it was not a forceful imposition by the North on the South or by "Aryans" on others. In India this process represented the formation of “Hinduism”, the banyan-tree of all Indian Religions, and therefore a hate-target for the breaking-India Forces. But this was a universal worldwide Pagan phenomenon: the powerful Romans for example identified all their own Gods with those of the earlier classical Greece (even directly adopting, for example, Gods like Apollo, in the process) and likewise adopted the Iranian Mithra. In Central America, the Aztec God Quetzalcoatl and the Mayan God Kukulkan were identified with each other. In China the Goddess of Mercy, Kuan Yin, was identified with the Buddhist Avalokiteswara (despite the difference in gender).

 

Greek Name

: Roman Name

Aphrodite 

Venus

Apollo 

Apollo 

Ares 

Mars

Artemis

Diana

Athena

Minerva

Demeter

Ceres

Hades

Pluto

Hephaistos

Vulcan

Hera

Juno

Hermes

Mercury

Hestia

Vesta

Kronos

Saturn

Persephone

Proserpina

Poseidon

Neptune

Zeus

Jupiter

Erinyes

Furiae

Eris

Discordia

Eros

Cupid

Moirae

Parcae

Charites

Gratiae

Helios

Sol

Horai

Horae

Pan

Faunus

Selene

Luna

Tyche

Fortuna

  

 

 


Saturday, 20 June 2026

Ancient Vedic and Classical Composers and Writers Were Extremely Illiterate in Textbook Etymology

 

Ancient Vedic and Classical Composers and Writers Were Extremely Illiterate in Textbook Etymology

 Shrikant G Talageri 

 

I have written a lot about textbookworm etymologists who raise objections about identifications on textbookworm grounds. Although I am not really interested any more in endless and pointless discussions and debates, I thought it perhaps appropriate to give one example to specifically illustrate the case.

A few days ago, someone wrote me the following mail. Who wrote it is not important since, as I said, I have no intentions of indulging in any more endless and pointless discussions and debates.

The mail was as follows:

Respected sir,

Please tell me where you got the name Kaoša in Avestan (which you suggest is recorded in the Rigveda under the name Kavaṣa RV 7.18.12). Is it a proper name? I haven't been able to find it today. Also the cognate of Kaoša in Indic is Kōṣa, not Kavaṣa. 

Thank you

About the first part, I pointed out that a simple question on google gave the following:

Inthe Avesta (the primary collection of sacred texts of Zoroastrianism), Kaosha is a minor historical figure mentioned in the Frawardin Yasht (Hymn to the Guardian Angels). [123]

Specific details regarding the mentions of Kaosha include:

·         Lineage: Kaosha is explicitly named as the father of a devout, righteous follower (an ashavan) named Fraora-ostra.

·         Context of the Text: His name appears in a long, recited list of ancestral and early heroes, priests, and devoted adherents. In the Frawardin Yasht (Yasna 13, verse 123), followers invoke and worship the guardian spirits (Fravashis) of these early holy men, including the "Fravashi of the holy Fraora-ostra, the son of Kaosha”.


About the second point, that “the cognate of Kaoša in Indic is Kōṣa, not Kavaṣa”, I tiredly wrote back: “As for what is the cognate of what, I have long ago given up replying to textbookwormish challenges to identifications”.

However, it would perhaps be right to be a bit more specific, since there is a whole host of names regarding which textbookworm objections have been raised claiming that such-and-such non-Sanskrit names cannot have been Sanskritized in certain ways because as per the textbook rules of comparative cognate etymology, the Sanskrit forms should have been something else. So let me deal with this specific point in this short one page article.

When a person takes a name from another language and pronounces it in his own language, he does not go by textbook rules of cognate etymology and decide that he must be politically or etymologically correct in his pronunciation so that the resultant form (in his own language) is exactly as per the textbook rules of what it should be as per rules of “cognate” forms. He simply takes the name as he hears it and pronounces it in his own language in his own way.

When Indians writing in the second century BCE took the Greek name Menander and made it Milinda, it is not because they were following some textbook rule that a Greek “men” was cognate to a Sanskrit/Pali “mil”, because I am sure it is not. They simply pronounced the Greek name in their Sanskrit/Pali writings in the way that the name sounded to them on entirely arbitrary grounds. Likewise, when Greek Alexander became Iskandar and later Sikandar, it was not because there were textbook rules of cognate etymology which made a Greek “Alex” into “Isk’ or “Sik” in any language. These changes took place on purely arbitrary human grounds.

Likewise when Sanskrit writers accepted Iranian names like Mihira (by itself as well as e.g. in names like Varahamihira) they did not reason that Miθra/Mihira was actually a cognate of Sanskrit Mitra and therefore convert the name Varahamihira into Varahamitra. They simply accepted the Iranian name and pronounced it, then and later, in their own new Sanskritized way.

Similarly, when the Vedic composers referred to the Anu-Iranian Kaoša in the Rigveda, they did not open out their textbooks of cognate etymology and decide that they should pronounce the name as Kōṣa: they simply relied on their ears. It is sad that these illiterate Vedic and Sanskrit composers and writers did not have modern textbookworms to guide them.

As I said: just putting in my word on this textbookworm disease. No intentions of participating in endless and pointless discussions and debates on this point.


APPENDIX ADDED 25 June 2026:

I wrote above “It is sad that these illiterate Vedic and Sanskrit composers and writers did not have modern textbookworms to guide them”. Unfortunately I am more happily (?) placed. The person who wrote the above mail to me seems to believe in the never-say-die maxim, and continues to repeat (in emails to me) his textbook arguments in spite of my repeated reiterations of the logic behind how people pronounce foreign names (i.e. names from another language). For the record, I will just give below the different ways in which I tried to make him understand this logic.

He wrote:

But yes, you have to realize that the language that the Rigveda is preserved in (Śakala) was likely not the language it was composed in. There is a lot of internal phonological & metrical evidence that shows this & actually justifies the 2500-3000 year gap between Vedic & Classical. The sound changes I am talking about would've happened from Rigvedic -> Śakala & would follow the natural laws of sound changes that have been established for Indo-Aryan languages (with Rigvedic looking more similar to Proto-Indo-Iranian). Therefore, the Menander point wouldn't hold in this case.

However, in order to help your side, you can argue that the original Indo-Iranian name was *Kawša (rendered in Śakala as Kaʋaṣa to fit the meter, as glides are perfectly valid in Rigvedic, ex: goagrāḥ). However, it would be difficult to explain the name Kavaṣa Ailūṣa, the author of a hymn in the 10th maṇḍala.

I replied back:

Apart from the fact that Mandala 10 follows long after the dasarajna battle, by which time the name would have been long established as a known one in India, you will note that Kavasha Ailusha is regarded as an outsider to the Vedic tradition (expressed of course in later myths in the Brahmanas, as being because he was born of a low-caste mother).

But all the verbal gymnastics trying to reconcile "natural laws of sound changes" into your arguments cannot explain why the Sanskrit references to Varahamihira do not refer to him as Varahamitra, recognizing mihira to be a cognate form of  Sanskrit mitra. Unlike people obsessed with "cognate" forms, normal people simply accept the names of people speaking another language in the forms in which the names appear before them; they do not open out textbooks of cognate equivalence charts to see how those foreign names can be converted into "cognate" forms. As, moreover, there was no name "Kosha" among the Rigvedic people, why should they be expected to have found it necessary to convert the name Kaosha as it appeared before them into a "cognate" form instead of simply Sanskritizing it into "Kavasha"? Everything does not fall into rigid rules in real life, so I see no need whatsoever to avail of your "help" and "argue that the original Indo-Iranian name was *Kawša (rendered in Śakala as Kaʋaṣa to fit the meter, as glides are perfectly valid in Rigvedic, ex: goagrāḥ)" as I see no need for finding rules to explain every nuance.

[And why do you say "the Menander point wouldn't hold in this case". Doesn't this mean that it is senseless to expect to find rules to explain everything? Regardless of which stage of Sanskrit was involved, why should "Mena" become "Mili": doesn't it show that acceptance of foreign names is always based on arbitrary practice and not on immutable rules?]

After this, he still writes:

You are not at all getting the point. You've mentioned this multiple times before, and even I have. 

Rigvedics would've "Sanskritized" (I honestly wouldn't use the term "Sanskrit" for Rigvedic, the language of the composers of the Rigveda was closer to Proto-Indo-Iranian. RV just happened to get preserved in a later language) the name Kaoša as *Kawša itself. This /aw/ later turns into /ō/ in the Śakala recession (of the Brāhmaṇa-period), several centuries after book 10 of the Rigveda. The question was why didn't it turn into Kōṣa in Śakala (because we only have "Late Brāh? Makes a lot more sense if the name was borrowed as *Kawaša just to fit the meter, rendered in Śakala as Kaʋaṣa.

As I repeatedly pointed out that I was not going to go into endless and senseless discussions on this point, I did not bother to do so in reply to his mail. I am merely ending the discussion” by putting the above dialogue on record.


Friday, 5 June 2026

A List of My Articles on Music

 


A List of My Articles on Music

Shrikant G Talageri

 

Music (apart from reading fiction, watching serials and eating) is the main passion of my life. I intended my recent articles on music uploaded on 5th April 2026 to be my last (or almost last) articles on my blogspot. Of course, I still have the option open to write any article I feel impelled to write. But for those interested in music, a list of my articles on music:

I. SPECIAL LONG SONG-LISTS

II. SINGER-WISE SONG LISTS (WITH OR WITHOUT URLs)

III. PERSONAL OR ANALYTICAL ARTICLES

IV. MUSICAL SCALES AND TAALS

 

 

I. SPECIAL LONG SONG-LISTS:

Ragawise Songs in Hindi and Marathi With URLs of Songs- 9 January 2025 (Final 5 April 2026)

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2026/01/blog-post.html

 

Ragawise Songs in Hindi and Marathi Plain List Without URLs of Songs- 23 November 2025 (Final 5 April 2026)

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2025/11/raga-wise-songs-in-hindi-and-marathi.html

 

List of Male Duets/Multi-Singer Songs in Hindi Films- 16 January 2024

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2024/01/list-of-male-duetsmulti-singer-songs-in.html

 

List of Female Duets/Multi-Singer Songs in Hindi Films- 7 January 2024

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2024/01/list-of-female-duetsmulti-singer-songs.html

 

 

II. SINGER-WISE SONG LISTS (WITH OR WITHOUT URLs):

Listen To Best Solo Hindi Songs of Lata Mangeshkar- 30 December 2025

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2025/12/listen-to-best-solo-hindi-songs-of-lata.html

 

Listen To Best Solo Hindi Songs of Asha Bhosle- 27 December 2025

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2025/12/listen-to-best-solo-hindi-songs-of-asha.html

 

Listen To Best Solo Hindi Songs of Mukesh- 26 December 2025

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2025/12/listen-to-best-solo-hindi-songs-of.html

 

Listen To Best Solo Hindi Songs of Mohd Rafi- 25 December 2025

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2025/12/listen-to-best-solo-hindi-songs-of-mohd.html

 

Listen To Best Solo Hindi Songs of Kishore Kumar- 13 December 2025

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2025/12/listen-to-popular-hindi-solo-and-duet.html

 

Listen To A Panorama of Popular Hindi Songs by Female Singers- 12 December 2025

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2025/12/listen-to-panorama-of-popular-hindi_12.html

 

Listen To A Panorama of Popular Hindi Songs by Male Singers- 9 December 2025

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2025/12/listen-to-panorama-of-popular-hindi.html

 

Listen To Mahendra Kapoor Hindi Songs- 5 December 2025

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2025/12/listen-to-mahendra-kapoor-hindi-songs.html

 

Listen To Manna Dey Hindi Songs 5 December 2025

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2025/12/listen-to-manna-dey-hindi-songs.html

 

Listen To Lata Solo and Lata-Rafi Duet Songs in Naushad’s Music- 3 December 2025

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2025/12/listen-to-lata-solo-and-lata-rafi-duet.html

 

Listen To Popular Talat Mehmood Film Songs- 3 December 2025

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2025/12/listen-to-popular-talat-mehmood-film.html

 

Listen To Lata Mangeshkar Solo Songs in Shankar Jaikishan’s Music- 3 December 2025

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2025/12/listen-to-lata-mangeshkar-solo-songs-in.html

 

Listen To Asha Bhosle Marathi Solo Songs- 2 December 2026

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2025/12/listen-to-asha-bhosle-marathi-solo-songs.html

 

Listen To Lata Mangeshkar Solo Songs in Madanmohan’s Music- 30 November 2026

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2025/11/listen-to-lata-mangeshkar-solo-songs-in.html

 

Listen To Jhap Taal in Hindi and Marathi Songs- 30 November 2026

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2025/11/listen-to-jhap-taal-in-hindi-and.html

 

Listen To Asha Bhosle Solo Songs in OP Nayyar’s Music- 30 November 2026

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2025/11/listen-to-asha-bhosle-solo-songs-in-o-p.html

 

Listen To Mohd Rafi Solo Songs in Naushad’s Music- 30 November 2026

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2025/11/listen-to-mohd-rafi-solo-songs-in.html

 

List of Hindi Video Songs on My Computer- 17 November 2025

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2025/11/list-of-hindi-video-songs-on-my-computer.html

 

List of Marathi Audio Songs on my Computer- 17 November 2025

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2025/11/list-of-marathi-audio-songs-on-my.html

 

 

III. PERSONAL OR ANALYTICAL ARTICLES:

Musical Memories of my Parents- 5 April 2026

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2026/04/musical-memories-of-my-parents.html

 

Nadiya Dheere Baho- From Rigveda to Folk Culture, concerts and Bollywood- 30 January 2026

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2026/01/nadiya-dheere-baho-from-rigveda-to-folk.html

 

Falsetto Singing as the New Norm/”Normal” in Indian Female Singing- 23 January 2026

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2026/01/falsetto-singing-as-modern-normnormal.html

 

A Few Minor Slip-ups by Some of the Very Greatest Music Directors of the Hindi Film Industry?- 11 January 2026

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2026/01/a-few-minor-slip-ups-by-some-of-very.html

 

Marathi Songs by Non-Marathi Singers- 28 November 2026

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2025/11/sanjeev-ramabhadran-and-non-marathi.html

 

Musical Notes: Is Madhyam “Śuddha and Tīvra” or “Komal and Śuddha”?-  24 May 2025

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2025/05/musical-notes-is-madhyam-suddha-and.html

 

A Unique Taal Found only in Punjabi folk Music- 15 January 2025

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2025/01/a-unique-taal-found-only-in-punjabi.html

 

“Bad-duā” or “Abhiśāp” Songs in Hindi Films- 24 September 2023

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2023/09/bad-dua-or-abhisap-songs-in-hindi-films.html

 

The Two Great Patriotic Songs of Veer Savarkar Rendered by the Mangeshkars- 27 March 2023

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2023/03/the-two-great-patriotic-songs-by-veer.html

 

Some of the Best Devi Songs From Old Hindi Films- 24 March 2023

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2023/03/some-of-best-devi-songs-from-old-hindi.html

 

 

IV. MUSICAL SCALES AND TAALS:

All Mathematically and Theoretically Possible 2048 Scales (Thāṭ not Rāga)- 5 August 2025

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2025/08/all-mathematically-and-theoretically_5.html

 

Notes-wise Classified List of Hindustani Rāgas- 7 June 2025

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2025/06/notes-wise-classified-list-of.html

 

Musical Scales: Thāṭ and Rāga, Part I- 7 February 2020

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2020/02/musical-scales-that-and-raga-i_48.html

 

Musical Scales: Thāṭ and Rāga, Part II- 8 February 2020

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2020/02/musical-scales-that-and-raga-ii_88.html

 

List of Marathi Songs in Roopak Taal of 7 Beats- 1 May 2012

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2012/04/list-of-marathi-songs-in-roopak-taal-of.html

 

List of Hindi Film Songs in Roopak Taal of 7 Beats- 1 May 2012

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2012/04/list-of-hindi-film-songs-in-roopak-taal_30.html

 

List of Marathi Songs in Jhap Taal of 10 Beats- 1 May 2012

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2012/04/list-of-marathi-songs-in-jhap-taal-of.html

 

List of Hindi Film Songs in Jhap Taal of 10 Beats- 23 April 2012

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2012/04/list-of-hindi-film-songs-in-jhap-taal_23.html

 


Monday, 20 April 2026

The Location of the Bharata Pūrus in My Writings

 

The Location of the Bharata Pūrus in My Writings

Shrikant G. Talageri 

 

After all this argumentation about the original location of the Bharata Pūrus in my writings, let me set the records straight

Since no-one can quote anything in my 1993 book where I say the Pūrus originated in Kashi, let me do their homework for them and point out a section in my 2000 book where it can be alleged that I claimed the Rigvedic kings were kings of Kashi. This was in my description of the Anukramaṇīs for X.179.2, where I pointed out that the verse is attributed to Pratardana Kāśirāja, and that this could indicate that according to the Anukramaṇīs Pratardana was a king of Kashi, and I even waxed eloquent on this point.

But I also simultaneously pointed out that:

Maṇḍala X, as we saw, was composed after the other nine Maṇḍalas, and compiled so long after them that its language alone, in spite of attempts at standardisation, is sufficient to establish its late position. The ascription of hymns in this Maṇḍala is so chaotic that in most of the hymns the names, or the patronymics/epithets, or both, of the composers, are fictitious; to the extent that, in 44 hymns out of 191, and in parts of one more, the family identity of the composers is a total mystery.

In many other hymns, the family identity, but not the actual identity of the composers, is clear or can be deduced: the hymns are ascribed to remote ancestors, or even to mythical ancestors not known to have composed any hymns in earlier Maṇḍalas”.

However, the above aberration in my enthusiastic description of the Anukramaṇīs for X.179.2 in my second book was not borne out anywhere else in my actual analysis on the subject and therefore no-one can honestly claim that I placed the Bharatas in Kashi.

In my first book in 1993, I have not analyzed the geography or other data in the Rigveda on my own, I have only described the descriptions of analysts of the Puranas (like Pargiter and Bhargava) as to the locations of the various dynasties. I repeatedly pointed out that the earliest forefathers like Manu, Ikṣvāku and Sudyumna were mythical persons. But, in noting the Puranic descriptions, I described the situation as follows:

At this point of time, the Purāṇas shift their major focus on to five dynasties, which they claim to be branches of the Sudyumna/Aila dynasty. These five dynasties are located as follows:

a. The Pūru dynasty: located around the region of the Sarasvati river (the Punjab, Haryana, and adjoining parts of western Uttar Pradesh).

b. The Anu dynasty: located to the north of the Pūrus, in the region to the north of the Paruṣṇī river (Kashmir).

c. The Druhyu dynasty: located to the west of the Purus (the north-west frontiers, Afghanistan).

d. The Yadu dynasty: located to the south-west of the Pūrus (Gujarat, western Madhya Pradesh, northern Maharashtra).

e. The Turvasu dynasty: located to the south-east of the Pūrus (location uncertain, but specifically to the cast of the Yadus).” (TALAGERI 1993:303).

I continued: “Of these, the Pūrus are most certainly the continuation of the main Sudyumna line. This is proved by both the Vedic evidence … and the Puranic and epic evidence (which clearly states that Pūru inherited the ancestral kingdom, around the Sarasvatī river, from his father Yayātī).” (TALAGERI 1993:303-4).

A few pages later, I repeated this geographical picture:

The Purāṇas locate the five dynasties, which are classified as Sudyumna dynasties, as follows:

1. The Pūru dynasty: the central region (Punjab, western Uttar Pradesh, Haryana, Delhi and Himachal Pradesh).

2. The Anu dynasty: the northern region (Kashmir).

3. The Druhyu dynasty: the western region (northernmost Kashmir, the northwest frontiers, Afghanistan).

4. The Turvasu dynasty: the south-eastern region (not stated clearly, and not identifiable; but supposed to be to the east of the Yadus. In any case, the dynasty fades away into obscurity in the Puranas itself).

5. The Yadu dynasty: the south-western region (Gujarat, western Madhya Pradesh, northern Maharashtra).

Bhargava, however, insists that all these five dynasties ruled in different parts of the Punjab itself. He, in fact, locates them in the same directions as indicated above, but within the Punjab: the Pūrus in the centre, the Anus to the north, the Druhyus to the west, the Turvasus to the south-east and the Yadus to the south-west. But the Pūrus, by all accounts, have to be placed on the banks of the Sarasvatī and cannot be restricted only to the central part of the Punjab. Hence, it is rather difficult for Bhargava to place the Turvasus and Yadus to the south-east and south-west respectively of the Purus, and yet show them located within the Punjab. Hence, when showing the locations of the five dynasties, in the map shown by him, Bhargava places his trust in the indulgence, or carelessness, of his readers” (TALAGERI 1993:322-23).

Please note that I have maintained this same geographical description from my first book in 1993 to my most recent blog (whichever) where I have described the locations of the five tribes. The Pūrus referred to here are the ancestral Pūrus, of which the Bharata dynasty of the Rigveda constituted just one later subtribe.

[Incidentally, in referring to the Bharata dynasty prominent in the Rigveda:, Bhargava writes: “The Paurava dynasty's list ends with the foundation of its branch, the Tṛtsus, who ruled very near the (main-line) Paurava territory” (TALAGERI 1993:326).. Nowhere do Kashi or Ayodhya enter into this picture.]

 

Let us go on to my second book (published in the year 2000), which occurs at the very end of the 1990s, and is also the book where I made that reference in the form of the above admittedly unwarranted aberration in my description of the Anukramaṇīs for X.179.2:

In that book also (even after giving some nominal consideration to the Anukramaṇīs for X.179.2), I point out in my actual analysis not only that Divodāsa and Sudās were kings of Kurukshetra (with Kashi nowhere in the picture), but even that their ancestors were likewise kings of Kurukshetra :

The references to Haryana are fairly distributed throughout the Rigveda, right from the oldest Maṇḍala VI: VI.1.2 refers to Agni being established at Iḷaspada. Even more significantly, III.23.4 tells us that Devavāta (an ancestor of Divodāsa of the oldest Maṇḍala VI) established Agni at that spot.” (TALAGERI 2000:117-118)

 

Likewise in my third book (2008):

The references to the eastern rivers (Sarasvatī, Āpayā and Drṣadvatī), in the second oldest book, in III.23.4, speak of the establishment of sacred fires on the banks of these rivers by ancestors” (TALAGERI 2008:100).

the establishment of the sacred fire at “the centre of the earth” in Kurukṣetra by the ancestors of Sudās (in III.23)” (TALAGERI 2008:127). 


I need hardly add that in subsequent books (2008, 2019) after my second book (in the year 2000) and in my blog articles (which started after 2012), nowhere is there even the hint of any reference to the Anukramaṇīs for X.179.2 or to any location of early Pūrus in Eastern U.P (whether in Kashi or Ayodhya): everywhere the ancestral land is unequivocally Haryana.

So was it just my enthusiastic description of the Anukramaṇīs for X.179.2 in my second book (2000), which was contradicted sharply in my actual analysis in all my four books (1993, 2000, 2008 and 2019) including that same book (2000), and in every single one of my blog articles, which has led to these persistent allegations that I located the early Pūrus in Kashi or Eastern U.P.?

Well even this single aberration (in my description of an Anukramaṇī reference) has not been cited by these people, and it required me to do that homework for them. There is no other reference which can be cited.