Saturday, 24 May 2025

Musical Notes: Is Madhyam “Śuddha and Tīvra” or “Komal and Śuddha”?

 

Musical Notes: Is Madhyam “Śuddha and Tīvra” or “Komal and Śuddha”?

Shrikant G. Talageri

 

In every field of study, there are certain conventional ways of representing the data. When presumptuous scholars decide they know better, and “correct” the data by processes of renaming the categories or the identifying marks of the data, they only end up muddying the waters to a great extent.

In studying the Rigveda, one irritant for me was the tendency of some western scholars to use their own discretion in the numbering of the hymns in Book 8:

Book 8 has 103 hymns. Of these 103 hymns, it is a well known fact that hymns 49-59, collectively called the Vālakhilya hymns, are later than the rest of Book 8, and were inserted into the middle of the book after hymn 48 before the book was given its final form.

Now, that these hymns were inserted later is certainly an important point to keep in mind when analyzing the Rigveda. But certain Indologists went a few steps further in presumptuousness, and decided to change the numbering of the hymns in Book 8 to incorporate the fact the hymns 49-59 are inserted hymns. So, in their translations of the Rigveda, and citations from the text, they removed the 11 Vālakhilya hymns (numbered 49-59) from the middle of Book 8 and placed them separately as an appendix after Book 8, numbering them as Vālakhilya 1-11, and changed the numbers of hymns VIII.60-103 to VIII.49-92.

The amount of problem that this created for people quoting or citing references from the Rigveda from these hymns (VIII.49-103), when the Indologists being cited were these presumptuous ones, can only be imagined. Whenever I cited Griffith for example, one of these presumptuous Indologists, in respect of any of these hymns, I ended up giving wrong hymn numbers. I tried to be very careful and meticulous, but, when citing hundreds of verses, I ended up inadvertently giving many wrong hymn numbers, for example, VIII.64.5 (as per Griffith) instead of VIII.75.5 (as per the actual Rigveda), and so on, without noticing the mistakes until much later if at all.

Likewise, when citing E.W.Hopkins, similar mistakes took place. If I cited Hopkins to the effect that the word vasavāna occurs in VIII.88.8 without noticing that it was a post-49 hymn from Book 8 and that I should therefore cross-check it became a wrong citation because the actual reference is VIII.99.8!

Hopkins later realized the confusion that his “corrected” numbering was causing, and restored the original numbering as per the actual Rigveda in his subsequent articles/papers: so that his earlier papers and later papers give different hymn numbers for the same reference. Naturally, this dual numbering only compounded the confusion since the same reference was given different numbers in different articles/papers.

I cannot explain the amount of inconvenience I encountered while doing my analysis of the Rigveda because of top-grade and responsible, and otherwise extremely great, scholars making presumptuous and unwarranted changes in established conventions of identifying data. The problem is firstly that the “corrected” numbering causes confusion between the citations of these presumptuous scholars and the original verses they are citing; and this problem is compounded by the fact that when studying the writings of different scholars who have analyzed the Rigveda, some using the correct original numbering and some using this presumptuously “corrected” numbering, there is even more confusion.

 

Now I am studying musical scales in order to identify Hindi and Marathi songs in different rāgas. And, again, I find myself up against presumptuous scholars making presumptuous and unwarranted changes in established conventions of identifying data: in this case, the data concerned is musical notes.

I have already written a very detailed article on the subject (which had to be uploaded in two parts):

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2020/02/musical-scales-that-and-raga-i_48.html 

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2020/02/musical-scales-that-and-raga-ii_88.html 


There are conventionally seven tones and twelve semitones.

In Indian convention, the seven tones are as follows:

Seven Tones: aḍja,  Ṛṣabh,  Gandhār,  Madhyam,  Pañcam,  Dhaivat,  Niṣād.

In short, they are known as Sa, Re, Ga, Ma, Pa, Dha, Ni. or S R G M P D N.

 

Of these Sa and Pa are known as achal swaras since they are accepted as having only one form each.

 

The other five tones have two forms each.

In the case of Re, Ga, Dha and Ni, the upper semitone is considered pure or Śuddha, and the lower semitone is considered flat or Komal.

Thus, we get r and R,  g and G,  d and D,  n and N.

In the case of ma, however, the lower tone is considered pure or śuddha, and the upper semitone is considered sharp or tīvra.

 

So we get the full set of twelve semitones (capitals representing śuddha notes):

S,   r,   R,   g,   G,   M,   m,   P,   d,   D,   n,   N.

 

Many people do not seem to understand the logic by which the upper note is always considered to be the pure note in the case of R, G, D, N, but in the case of M alone, it is the lower note which is considered to be the pure note. And therefore, they choose to correct what they think is an illogical convention  by interchanging the symbols for M and m so that now M also has a pure upper note!

So the twelve semitones are represented by these scholars as follows:

S,   r,   R,   g,   G,   m,   M,   P,   d,   D,   n,   N.

 

And this is done by many scholars who have done really incredibly great work on the subject of Indian musical scales, and a search on the internet will demonstrate the chaos this creates wherever the madhyam swaras are concerned. For example, George Howlett, who has this really great and detailed site on rāgas:

https://ragajunglism.org/ragas/ 

Two of the most basic scales or thāṭ-rāgas in Indian music are Bilawal and Kalyan/Yaman, which should be represented as follows:

BILAWAL: S R G M P D N S.

YAMAN: S R G m P D N S.

Howlett however represents them as follows:

BILAWAL: S R G m P D N S.

YAMAN: S R G M P D N S

https://ragajunglism.org/ragas/bilawal/ 

https://ragajunglism.org/ragas/yaman/

 

In Indian tradition, a particularly “cute” child (and every child is particularly “cute” for its parents) is protected from the evil eyes of others by applying a spot or two of black kajal on his cheeks. Are the great works of these scholars being sought to be protected from evil eyes by making these presumptuous distortions in presentation and causing distortions in otherwise splendid scholarly works?

The senselessness of this kind of presumptuous “correction” can be understood if we speculate as to what would have been the result of Griffith and others applying to the whole of the Rigveda the same principle that they applied to the hymns of Book 8:

All scholars are agreed that of the ten books in the Rigveda, six, Books 2-7 are older than the other four, Books, 1,8,9,10 [That the actual chronological order within the older books is 6,3,7,4,2, is another matter. Here we will only take the conventionally and universally accepted fact that Books 2-7 are older than the other four, Books, 1,8,9,10]. What if these scholars had decided to rename (i.e re-number) the books of the Rigveda to reflect this, so that the Rigveda started with Books 2-7 followed by Books 1,8,9,10, with Books 2-7 renumbered as Books 1-6, and Books 1,8,9,10 renumbered as Books 7,8,9,10 (or whatever other order they thought correct)? One cannot even imagine the chaos that would have resulted in the field of Rigvedic studies. 

 

The same goes for the renaming of the musical notes M and m as m and M respectively. It makes the study of Indian musical scales with its thousands of rāgas (most of them containing one or both forms of the madhyam swara) a chaotic affair (especially when studying different scholars, many using the conventional names and symbols and many others using the “corrected” or “revised” ones).

But, apart from the confusion resulting from renaming M and m as m and M, is it even musically correct from a strictly academic point of view?

The scholars using the “corrected” names or symbols m and M seem to think that they are correcting an anomaly in the traditional understanding of these notes. That, just as the second of each other pair (ṛṣabhgandhārdhaivat,  niṣād) is considered the śuddha form, the second of the madhyam  pair should also logically be considered the śuddha form.


However, this is musically wrong: madhyam is not in the same musical category as ṛṣabhgandhārdhaivatniṣād. It is in fact in the same musical category as Pa:

1. In my earlier article on Musical Scales, I pointed out how the octave (of twelve notes or semitones totaling 1200 cents) was derived from a basic “tonic” note (ṣaḍja) by a recurring cycle of “fifths” (i.e. two notes at a distance of 700/702 cents from each other):

If pitch is represented on a long vertical line so that various points higher or lower on that line depict higher and lower pitches respectively, then there is a certain fixed distance/length on that line which represents what is known as an "octave": if we start with a sound at a certain pitch and mark it as a point on that line, and then keep taking the voice higher and higher, we will reach another point further up where we find what is clearly the same sound at a higher pitch: (technically this is because the second sound is formed out of twice the number of wave cycles per second, measured in hertz, as the first sound, but we will not concern ourselves with these technicalities). This length, or distance between the two points, is what is called an "octave". An octave is a natural division of sound, and a natural phenomenon which is discovered in every civilization which develops a musical culture.

This "octave" can be illustrated with a musical instrument. Take for example the easiest instrument to illustrate the octave: a harmonium. We will find that the keys on a harmonium are in two rows, a lower row of white keys and a higher row of black keys, in the following form:


As we can see, the pattern of keys (taking both rows) is as follows:

white-black-white-black-white,

white-black-white-black-white-black-white.

Let us number the keys 1 to 12. Each key one after the other produces a sound which keeps rising by one note over the previous key.

In the above picture, the first 12 keys represent (at least on the harmonium) what we call the mandra saptak (low octave), the next 12 keys represent the madhya saptak (middle octave) and the last 12 keys represent the tār saptak (high octave).

If we press any two keys at the same time, we will generally hear a discordant medley of two sounds. But if we press key 1 and key 13 (i.e. the first key in the first series of 12, and the first key in the second series of 12) together, we will hear a composite sound in what is called "absolute harmony" because it is actually the same sound at two different pitches: it will be as if we are hearing the same sound moving like a wave between a high pitch and a low pitch. Similarly, if we press any other two keys which are at a distance of 12 (or multiples of the same) from each other (2 and 14, 3 and 15, or even 1 and 25, 2 and 26, etc), the same effect of "one sound at two pitches" will be produced.

The octave is the length or distance, on the "pitch" line, between a given sound and the same sound at a (i.e. at the next) higher pitch, and this distance has been theoretically divided by musicologists into fixed smaller divisions known as "cents", where one octave is 1200 cents.

In ancient India with its unique oral tradition (as shown in the oral transmission of the Rigveda in oral form for millenniums without the slightest change), the various notes were distinguished on the basis of the performer's highly-trained voice and ears, and passed on from guru to śiṣya in that form, and musical instruments were also tuned on that basis, and the notes and the natural scale were based on pure acoustics, leading to very subtle nuances in sounds. In Western music, the octave is divided into 12 equal notes of 100 cents each. This is known as the "tempered scale" because of this uniform equal division into 100 cents. Because of the dominant use of the harmonium in learning Indian classical music, and consequent laxity, modern day Indian music has also generally leveled out the notes into equal divisions.

Apart from the octave, there is another very important distance between two sounds: the fifth. The different notes of the scale within an octave are in fact possible on the basis of this relationship between two sounds: just as we get one sound in the form of an undulating wave between two pitches when we press two keys at a distance of 12 (i.e. at 1200 cents) from one another, and this distance is called an "octave" with the resulting composite sound producing "absolute harmony"; similarly we get another combined sound which is extremely musical when we press two keys at a distance of 7 (i.e. 700 cents) from one another (e.g. key 1 and key 8, key 2 and key 9, etc.), and this distance is known as a "fifth", and the resulting composite sound produces what is described as two different sounds in "perfect harmony".

In the above picture of the harmonium keys, if the first white key represents the starting note called ṣaḍja or SA, the eighth white key represents the ṣaḍja or SA in the higher octave, and the fifth white key represents the pañcam or PA. These two notes SA and PA are considered the two basic and unalterable pillars of the octave or saptak. From these two are produced the other notes.

[…]

SA is in perfect harmony with PA which is 700 cents higher within the octave: so the fifth, twelfth and nineteenth white keys represent PA in the three octaves.

But if SA is in perfect harmony with the note 700 cents above it, it is also in perfect harmony with the note 700 cents below it. In the above diagram, this note would be represented by the fourth, eleventh and eighteenth white keys (the eighteenth key being 700 cents below the next SA, not shown in the picture). Now, since all the three octaves already have notes named PA, this note, which is 500 cents above the lower SA, has to be given another name: madhyam or MA.

So each SA is in perfect harmony with the PA higher than it, and with the MA lower than it.

So now, within each octave, we have three notes in harmony with each other: SA, MA and PA.

Clearly, the main (or śuddha) madhyam swara note is the lower of the two madhyam swaras and not the upper one.

 

2. In fact, the upper of the two madhyam swaras is only a madhyama swara by convention (since the octave is derived by an upward movement of the cycle of fifths). It could also be classified as komal pa or p, since it occupies exactly the middle position between the two śuddha swaras Ma and Pa, both of which are at a distance of a fifth from a ṣaḍja.

Which is why, while the different pure seven note thāṭs in North India Classical Music have M-P (and no m) or m-P (and no M), but there also at least two pure seven note thāṭs which have M-m (and no P):

Lalat:  S r G M m d N S

Ahir Lalat:  S r G M m D n S.

In both these (and the other theoretically possible 14 thāṭs with M-m and no P) the m is actually a komal pa.

Again, it is clear that this upper madhyam swara, which can also be interpreted as a komal pañcam cannot be the śuddha form of madhyam.

 

To sum up, my only objective in writing this article was to alert readers (especially people who may be looking up the notes of rāgas on the internet or in the works of musicologists) to the fact that it must be checked whether the particular person giving the notes in any rāga is using the correct original sequence of M-m or the incorrectcorrectedsequence of m-M.

In the case of the otherwise very useful site of George Howlett referred to above, it is at least possible to understand that he is taking the upper madhyam as śuddha, since each page of his site contains the following chakra of twelve semitones:

[The following chakra is from his page on the rāga Bilawal]



It must be noted that while distorting the traditional Indian names of the madhyam notes (by symbolizing śuddha madhyam and tīvra madhyam as komal madhyam and śuddha madhyam respectively, i.e. as m and M respectively), he is himself clear that this is wrong: see the fourth row of his table below, where he classifies the two notes as 4 and #4 respectively instead of as b4 and 4 as he should have done to make his symbolization consistent with the first row: i.e. in the fourth row, he accepts that the second form is the sharp version of the first form, rather than that the first form is the flat version of the second form)


 

But in the case of many of most others giving the notes of rāgas on the internet, it is not easy for a layman reader to understand whether the sequence given  is M-m or m-M.



Monday, 19 May 2025

Nineteenth Century CE Chronology of Vārṣāgira War By Nash Siddiqui

 

Nineteenth century CE Chronology of Vārṣāgira War By Nash Siddiqui

 Shrikant G. Talageri

 

Someone just sent me a thread of tweets on the Vārṣāgira battle by a person named Nash Siddiqui (whose name I have heard many times, but know little or nothing about his claims and views):

https://x.com/Nash_Siddiqui

Saturday, 9 May 2020 The Vārṣāgira Battle in the Rigveda Shrikant G. Talageri talageri.blogspot.com/2020/05/the-va

 

I will not go into all the tweets in this thread, but only the relevant claim made by him in his tweet dated 11 May 2025 11.44 PM, on the subject of the chronology of the Vārṣāgira battle: *Mahabharat War 950 BCE *Dashrajanya War 1250 BCE”, which he refers to in this present thread. He seems to place the Vārṣāgira battle between 1250 BCE and 950 BCE.

It appears this writer is still living in the old days where the AIT is dated at 1500 BCE and all other Rigvedic events automatically dated subsequent to that date! No, he is not unique in this respect: he is part of a massive army of writers who are still living in the late nineteenth century (CE/AD) before the discovery of the Mitanni inscriptions.

 

As I have repeatedly shown (I am too tired of repeating myself to even bother to give the URLs of the various articles where I have dealt with the chronology of the Mitanni data), the vocabulary of the Mitanni data shows that the ancestors (yes, the ancestors: not the actual Mitanni kings recorded in the West Asian inscriptions of 1500-1400 BCE, but their far-off ancestors who went out from India) left India during the period of composition of the New Rigveda.

The Rigveda is divided into two parts: the Old Rigveda consisting of the Old Hymns in Books 6,3,7,4,2 of the Rigveda, and the New Rigveda consisting of the New Hymns in Books 5,1,8,9,10 of the Rigveda. The two parts stand centuries apart from each other, as can be seen in the huge chronological gulf between their vocabularies:

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2022/08/final-version-of-chronological-gulf.html

The “Dashrajanya War” took place in the period of the Old Rigveda, and the Vārṣāgira battle took place later, but still well before the period of the New Rigveda.

If the “Dashrajanya War” took place in 1250 BCE, the Mitanni kingdom was already fully in place in Syria-Iraq by that time (or perhaps even in a state of decline at the time of this war). Which means the far-off ancestors of the Mitanni who went out from India had already left India long before even the “Dashrajanya War”, somewhere in the earlier part of the Old Rigveda. So how did they, some time long before 1500 BCE, take with them a new vocabulary which, (according to this man’s chronology) could only have come into existence long after 1250 BCE?

I can only plead with these outdated scholars to move ahead from the late nineteenth century (CE/AD) in their knowledge of the state of art of the data concerning the Aryan debate.


Tuesday, 13 May 2025

Oldest Harappan Sites are in the East not in the West

Oldest Harappan Sites are in the East not in the West

Shrikant G. Talageri

 

Someone sent me a tweet by Koenraad Elst:

https://x.com/ElstKoenraad

The AIT crowd jubilates that Baluchi agri-site Mehrgarh's later date than hitherto thought proves Harappa is later. No, it proves westernmost Mehrgarh isn't the oldest w/in Harappa; more easterly sites, like Bhirrāņa, are. No provenance from West Asia.


From nature.com

1.23 AM. May 14 2005

What a wonderful start to the day!


Typing “Bhirrana dates”, I get the following “AI Overview” on google:

Bhirrana, in the Fatehabad district of Haryana, India, is considered one of the oldest Indus Valley Civilization sites, with estimated dates ranging from 7570-6200 BC. Radio-carbon dating, primarily used to determine the age of organic materials, is the method used to estimate the antiquity of Bhirrana. Based on charcoal samples, two different dates have been calculated for the site: 7570-7180 BCE and 6689-6201 BCE.

Typing “Mehrgarh news”, I get the following “AI Overview” on google:

 Recent news and updates regarding Mehrgarh primarily revolve around ongoing research and the site's historical significance. Recent radiocarbon studies have revised the age of Mehrgarh, a key site in the Indus Valley Civilization, from 8000 BCE to 5200 BCEThis discovery impacts understanding of the region's agricultural development. Additionally, Mehrgarh is being recognized for its role as one of the earliest sites with evidence of farming and herding in South Asia.

So Bhirrana now dates to “7570-7180 BCE and 6689-6201 BCE” and Mehrgarh (in Baluchistan) to “5200 BCE”. So Haryana, center of the Rigveda and one of the easternmost sites of Harappan culture is older than Mehrgarh, one of the westernmost sites in India.

Of course, this does not downgrade Mehrgarh in a fundamental sphere (in matters of being the earliest site in respect of agricultural and pastoral origins in India). The news is still: “Mehrgarh is being recognized for its role as one of the earliest sites with evidence of farming and herding in South Asia.

But, as Koenraad points out, western AIT fanatics like Witzel still don’t get the point: eastern Harappan sites are older than western ones.  

On a mail, Koenraad cites Michael Witzel crowing over the “chronological downgrading” of Mehrgarh, hitherto believed to be the oldest Indian site. This is the level of stupidity of these so called peer-reviewed top western academic scholars!

So thank you Koenraad for the news and Witzel for demonstrating your total lack of logic.

 

On an important side note, does this prove something which has been a subject of intense debate between myself and Jijith recently, that all other Indian people (e.g Ikṣvākus) migrated to their historic areas from Haryana? No. earliest dates of sites do not prove that everyone else from areas with later (or even much later) dated sites “migrated” from the area of the earlier dated site. Human beings do not come into existence on the basis of archaeological sites.

Typing “oldest dated Sumerian site” on google produces the following “AI Overview” on google:

The oldest dated Sumerian site is Eridu, located on the coast of the Persian GulfEridu is considered one of the oldest cities and is thought to have been founded around 5400 BC, during the early Ubaid period.

Bhirrana, “7570-7180 BCE and 6689-6201 BCE”, is older than the oldest dated Sumerian site, “around 5400 BC”. But this does not mean that the Sumerians migrated to Eridu from Bhirrana.

A direct question on google, “Do recent carbon dating findings indicate that people from Bhirrana migrated to Mehrgarh” produces the following “AI Overview” on google:

No, recent carbon dating findings do not indicate that people from Bhirrana migrated to Mehrgarh. In fact, Bhirrana has been identified as potentially older than Mehrgarh, with some evidence suggesting its origins date back to 7570 BCE to 6200 BCE. Mehrgarh is typically dated to around 7000 BCE. This means Mehrgarh may have followed the development of Bhirrana rather than the other way around.

So let us be balanced and rational in drawing conclusions from facts.


Sunday, 11 May 2025

Witzel’s Latest Presentation (2025) of “Peer-Reviewed” Western Academic Lies

 

Witzel’s Latest Presentation (2025) of “Peer-Reviewed” Western Academic Lies

Shrikant G. Talageri

 

Someone just sent me a copy of Witzel’s latest article, dated 30 February 2025, titled “The Realm of the Kuru – Origins and Development of the First State in India” in his “peer-reviewed” online Academic journal, EJVS (Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies), asking for my comments on it:

https://hasp.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/journals/ejvs/article/view/27845/27253 

I started going through the article, around 160 pages long, and, in the very first few paragraphs, I realized that this was nothing but just one more collection of the lies and pure rubbish that Witzel has been writing and publishing in “peer-reviewed” journals – a circumstance which awes zealous Indian sepoys into reverent genuflection, and into contemptuous dismissal of others, like myself, not featuring in these “peer-reviewed” journals – and it is not really worth my time. I have spent enough time in the past dealing with Witzel’s lies:

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2025/01/witzel-and-ait-vs-oit-linguistic-debate.html 

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2022/06/michael-witzel-perennial-compulsive-liar.html 

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2022/02/goebbelsian-repetition-of-witzels-lies.html 

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2021/09/michael-witzel-examination-of-his.html 

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2021/02/fake-allegation-about-my-insulting.html

and so on.


Recently, in a rather rough debate with another person, I wrote:

discussing anything with you is like talking with a parrot. In many books (I think especially in PG Wodehouse books) there are situations where someone enters an empty house or room and suddenly hears a voice asking "who are you?". Startled, he tells his name and looks around to see who is speaking. He cannot see anyone, but again the voice asks "who are you?". He keeps answering in detail many times, getting more and more irritated, until suddenly he hears the voice giving a screeching laugh and saying something like "Polly wants a cracker". Then he suddenly realizes that he was talking to a parrot who never hears the answers and only keeps on repeating itself. Do you think he would continue the dialogue?

You keep repeating what you had said before without paying any attention to the replies. Talking to you is as useless as talking to a parrot.

And that too, a parrot which consistently tells blatant lies, and when caught or exposed, refuses to admit it.

Actually, it is this kind of parrot-talk, which I have been facing from Witzel since the last 22 years or so, which has made me very intolerant of this kind of troll behavior in what one would expect to be an honest, rational and academic discussion based on the data and evidence.

 

While I will naturally read the full above article by Witzel, I may not bother to give a full review or “reply” to it at the moment (and maybe not later either), because frankly this is ridiculous and gets on my nerves. But let me point out why I realized in the very first few paragraphs that this was a “parrot-article”.


1. On page 5 (of around 160 pages) he tells us: “the language of the Indo-Aryan words in the Mitanni texts is actually slightly older than the language of the RV”.

2. Then, again, on page 95, he reiterates this completely exposed claim: “the language of the Indo-Aryan words in the Mitanni documents of N. Iraq/Syria (c. 1400 BCE) is slightly older than the language of the RV”.

3. And on the next page 96, he tells us the Mitanni texts “may precede the comparatively late date of the bulk of the RV text and its post-Mitanni linguistic form by a few centuries. A few of the earliest hymns of the RV could then date from before c. 1250 BCE, its bulk from the period between c. 1250 and c. 1000 BCE.

After all the evidence that I have placed on record in the last 18 years (since my third book in 2008, and in so many articles after that) showing how the language of the Mitanni absolutely and completely post-dates the language of the Old Rigveda, if this purely fraudulent professor can still  in the year 2025 write the above, what does it say of the moral and academic integrity, the utter shamelessness and incorrigibility, and the reckless gall and arrogance  of this man. Not to mention, of the moral and academic integrity of the westernpeer-reviewedacademic world that he represents?

Am I expected to repeat all that evidence here again in this article? And for whom?

 

Then, again, he describes Sudās’ activities and geographical movements as follows (just three quotes will suffice):

1. “the Ṛgvedic archetype of the Mahābhārata, the so-called "Ten Kings' Battle" (dāśarājña), took place much further west, on the Paruṣṇī (River Ravī). After to the victory of the Bharata chieftain Sudās in this battle, the Bharata tribe was able to secure the Kurukṣetra area” (page 3).

2. “By the end of the Ṛgvedic period, after Sudās' victory, the focus of the texts has shifted, from the Panjab to the Kurukṣetra area” (page 97).

3. “Kurukṣetra area was conceived as the "center of the world", a trait first visible after the victory of the Bharata king Sudās and his settling on the Sarasvatī (RV 3.53)” (page 136).

In short, Witzel is claiming here, in these three blatantly false statements, that the “Ten Kings' Battle" (dāśarājña) preceded the presence of Sudās and the Bharatas in the Kurukṣetra area!

 

Can anything be more blatantly and fraudulently false? I have repeatedly shown, in my books and articles from 2000 onwards, the massive, overwhelming and uni-directional data and evidence in the Rigveda showing that Sudās and his Bharata ancestors were already settled in the Kurukṣetra area from so long before the period of Sudās that they are closely familiar with no other land beyond the area to the east of the Sarasvati river in Haryana and westernmost Uttar Pradesh. Sudās’ ancestors, as remote as Devavāta, Sṛñjaya and Divodāsa, were all living in the Kurukṣetra area, and the movement of the Bharatas westwards started after:

a) Sudās’ performance of the yajña under his priest Viśvāmitra in the Kurukṣetra area, after which he started expanding out in all directions.

b) Sudās’ crossing from east to west of the two easternmost rivers of the Punjab (the Vipāś and Śutudri, i.e. the Beas and Sutlej), still under his priest Viśvāmitra.

c) His battle on the Paruṣṇī river (i.e. the Ravi river) against the “people of the Asiknī” (i.e. the people living on the western side of the Paruṣṇī river, in the area between the Paruṣṇī and the Asiknī river, i.e. the Chenab river) in the "Ten Kings' Battle" (dāśarājña).

 

But wait. Do you really have to go through all the data and evidence presented by me to confirm this?

No, you don’t! You just have to go through Witzel’s own writings, and you will see very clearly how even he is fully aware that the "Ten Kings' Battle" (dāśarājña) took place long after the Bharatas can be seen as the native inhabitants of the Kurukṣetra area.

He very clearly knows that Viśvāmitra was Sudās’ priest before he was replaced by Vasiṣṭha, and that the yajña in the Kurukṣetra area was conducted under his  earlier priest Viśvāmitra, and that the victory in the "Ten Kings' Battle" (dāśarājña) took place under the later priest Vasiṣṭha. What geographical sequence does this show?

And in fact, Witzel is so emphatically aware that Viśvāmitra (in the Kurukṣetra area) represented an earlier period than Vasiṣṭha (in the "Ten Kings' Battle" in the Punjab area) that he actually supports the fallacious theory that it was Viśvāmitra, out of his resentment at having been replaced by Vasiṣṭha, who cobbled together the alliance of the Ten Kings against Sudās:

the other tribes began to unite against them [the Bharatas], either due to the intrigues of the ousted Viśvāmitra, or simply because of intratribal resentment. This led to the famous battle of the ten kings which, however, is not mentioned by Book 3, as Viśvāmitra (its author) had by then been displaced by Vasiṣṭha as the purohita of Sudās. There is even the possibility that it was Viśvāmitra who ― in an act of revenge ― forged the alliance against his former chief. Whatever the reason, however, the alliance failed and the Pūrus were completely ousted (7.8.4 etc) along with Viśvāmitra (=Bhṛgu, 7.18.6)” (WITZEL 1995b:334)”.

Surely, the above quote in Witzel’s own words makes it clear whether it is Sudās and Viśvāmitra in Haryana who are chronologically earlier, or Sudās and Vasiṣṭha in the Punjab?

 

Obviously, life is short, and I cannot waste any more of my time reviewing or discussing again and again the wild ramblings of a lying parrot – it is now the year 2025, and it is already 22 years that this vaudeville cross-talk has been going on.

 

BIBLIOGRAPHY:

WITZEL 1995b: Rgvedic History: Poets, Chieftains and Politics. Witzel, Michael. pp. 307-352 in “The Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia”, ed. by George Erdosy. Walter de Gruyter. Berlin.


Saturday, 10 May 2025

The Ticking Time Bomb: Delimitation of Parliamentary Seats


The Ticking Time Bomb: Delimitation of Parliamentary Seats

Shrikant G. Talageri

  

Every regime which has ruled India has planted time bombs which are timed to explode at certain times in the future, to the detriment of a stupid, ignorant and indifferent Indian public and to cause bitter resentments, chaos and internal wars designed to keep the country weak, vulnerable and divided while the ruling (esp. the political) classes make hay in the electoral arena and eat “malai” and “mewa”.

The British are always accused by “patriotic” Indians of having planted countless such time bombs. But the pseudo-secularist Congress regimes which ruled India for most of the post-Independence period, and the pseudo-Hindutvite BJP regime have been no less irresponsible and guilty in this exercise. It was, and is, and perhaps always will be in the interests of all mercenary ruling regimes to keep the pots of internal injustices, inequalities, fissiparous tendencies and internal hatreds perennially boiling, and to hell with what happens to the country and its people! The country, of course, being an inanimate entity, has no say in whatever is done to it. But, at least in theory, the people should be having the right to have their say and to see that it (their say) is heard and correctly responded to by the mercenary politicians. But that is only in theory: in practice, the Indian public in general, and those members of the Indian public who have influence and control over the rest in particular, are so stupid, ignorant and indifferent – and yes, have their own mercenary interests as well – that expecting them to care and to do something concrete is the purest theory of all.

Which is why the pseudo-secularist politicians (with the assent of the pseudo-Hindutva politicians), and the pseudo-Hindutva politicians in their turn whenever in power, have been nurturing all earlier time bombs and planting new ones, and why the Indian public remains blissfully ignorant of, and indifferent to, everything: whether it is the grossly unequal laws which make Hindus eighth class citizens in their own country to an extent unparalleled in any other “democratic” country, or the caste-based time bombs which are designed to keep the country bitterly divided against itself for all time to come.

 

But now, it is almost time for another, and equally disruptive time bomb (nothing to do with religion or caste, but with regions or states) set off to be detonated in 2026: the time bomb of “statewise delimitation of Lok Sabha seats” is going to set off undying regional hatreds as never before:




And to be very frank and honest, if and when the Dravidianists take up cudgels against the India state after the said exercise – regardless of the extent of extremism to which their reactions may take themthey will be absolutely and utterly in the right and will be having Justice fully on their side!

Even today, Dravidianists and other regional chauvinists, and even perfectly objective people, from the southern states claim that South India is the step-child of the modern Indian state. They claim that the overwhelming domination of the North Indian and particularly the Hindi states in the Lok Sabha in the matter of the number of Lok Sabha seats, leaves them with little control of anything in the country. After this delimitation, it will leave them with absolutely no control of anything in the country.

Let us see why:


DRAVIDIAN SOUTH

Present Seats

Seats after 2026

Tamilnadu + Puducherry

40

50

Kerala

20

20

Andhra + Telangana

42

54

Karnataka

28

41

TOTAL

130

165

 

WEST

Present Seats

Seats after 2026

Maharashtra

48

76

Gujarat

26

43

Goa

2

2

TOTAL

76

121

 

EAST

Present Seats

Seats after 2026

Bengal

42

60

Odisha

21

28

Northeast + Sikkim

25

32

TOTAL

88

120

 

OTHERS

Present Seats

Seats after 2026

Punjab

13

18

Jammu-Kashmir-Ladakh

6

9

Andaman + Lakshadweep

2

2

Dadra NH + Daman Diu

2

2

TOTAL

23

31

 

SUMMARY

Present Seats and %

Seats after 2026 and %

HINDI STATES

226 = 41.62%

409 = 48.35%

DRAVIDIAN SOUTH

130 = 23.94%

165 = 19.50%

WEST

76 = 16.21%

121 = 14.18%

EAST

88 = 13.99%

120 = 14.30%

OTHERS

23 = 4.23%

31 = 3.66%

TOTAL

543

846

 

In  a country where Machiavellian trickery is considered something to be admired, Amit Shah makes an announcement which the title of the news item in the Indian Express announces as follows: “Amit Shah’s big announcement on delimitation: whatever increase (in seats) is there, Southern states will get a fair share…not one seat will be reduced”:

https://indianexpress.com/article/india/amit-shah-delimitation-lok-sabha-seats-tamil-nadu-stalin-9857226/ 

Naturally, not one seat will be reduced: Tamilnadu’s share (see the above tables) will not be reduced by a single seat: it will go up from 40 to 50 (or, not counting Puducherry, from 39 to 49), Amit Shah spoke the absolute truth: “aśvatthāma (the elephant)”!!

 

But why did he cleverly put it in that manner? See the full report:

Addressing BJP workers at the inauguration of party offices in Coimbatore, Tiruvannamalai and Ramanathapuram, Shah said, “Today a meeting will be held to ensure the South does not suffer on account of delimitation. The public in Tamil Nadu is disturbed. This is why the Tamil Nadu CM (Stalin) and his son (Udhayanidhi) are trying to distract the public. Mr Stalin, the Modi government has made it clear in Lok Sabha that after delimitation, on pro rata basis, not a single seat will be reduced in any southern state. And I want to reassure the public of South India that Modi ji has kept your interest in mind to make sure that not even one seat is reduced pro rata. And whatever increase is there, southern states will get a fair share, there is no reason to doubt this.”

A day earlier, Stalin had warned that Tamil Nadu could lose up to eight of its 39 Lok Sabha constituencies due to the delimitation exercise, potentially reducing its seats to 31. He had described the process as a “sword hanging over the head of South India,” raising fears of diminished representation and rights for Tamil Nadu.

 

Apparently, as per some other estimates of the statewise number of seats after 2026, it was estimated that the total number of seats would be the same (543) but redistributed among the states in new ratios and proportions: i.e. more or less the same ratio or proportion as in the above tables where the total number of seats would be 846! So, yes, “not one seat will be reduced” – but the statewise percentage of seats in the total number of seats would certainly be reduced drastically, especially in relation to that of the Hindi states!

So, will 2026 be the beginning of the end for the emotional unity of India? Given the fact of India’s mercenary politicians and the stupid, ignorant and indifferent (and actually little less mercenary) Indian masses, that is perfectly possible. But again − for who can predict the future – perhaps because of India’s mercenary politicians and the stupid, ignorant and indifferent (and actually little less mercenary) Indian masses, India may still continue limping ahead.

 

But some things can be predicted, and I am predicting them here for the record:

This Parliamentary Delimitation of Lok Sabha seats will go ahead as planned, because no party will want to disappoint or alienate voters from those states whose number of seats are scheduled to rise sharply.

A few years later, after the 2031 National Census of India records the caste of every citizen of India (as per the recent decision by the BJP government to introduce caste census within the National Census from 2031 onwards), there will be redistribution of Lok Sabha seats into reserved categories on the basis of caste.

A few years after that (if not before the 2031 census itself), politicians will realize that Muslim voters are increasing in numbers at even faster rates than the voters from any particular castes. Then there will be a decision to win over the Muslim voters by reserving population-wise numbers of Lok Sabha seats for Muslims.

No one may protest, and no-one may care. All these will be hailed as "masterstrokes". If anyone thinks of protesting or caring, Pakistan will lend its hand by launching attacks in Kashmir or elsewhere on the borders, leading to a massive wave of jingoism in which all other issues will fly out of the minds of the stupid, ignorant and indifferent (and actually little less mercenary) Indian masses. [In Orwell’s Animal Farm, the pigs were never the cause of the woes of the common animals: it was always Mr. Jones or Mr. Pilkington or Mr. Frederick, or, of course, Snowball!]

Any silver lining in the clouds? Yes: I may not be alive till then, to see all this happening.