The Dāśarājña Battle or Battle of Ten Kings

The Dāśarājña Battle or Battle of Ten Kings

India’s Earliest Historical Battle and Its International Repercussions

[This is the power-point presentation used by me in my "Sangam Talks" talk on 15-5-2021, which will probably be uploaded on youtube by the "Sangam Talks" organizers hopefully in a day or two. I tried to upload the actual powerpoint but the process of uploading a powerpoint presentation on a blogspot was too complicated for me, so I converted the powerpoint pdf into a text document and then into a wordfile which I am uploading below.

For details please see the youtube video when it is uploaded (probably in two parts, since the talk itself was almost one and a half hours and the QA session which followed stretched from the scheduled 20 minutes to over one and a half hours].

 

 

What is the value of the Rigvedic data?

• The Rigveda is the oldest recorded text in the whole world.

With its 1028 hymns and 10552 verses it is a huge reservoir

of ancient data. But what is the value of this data? To what

extent can it help us to reconstruct or understand the

details of Vedic history?

• Today we have film songs, bhajans, abhangs and kritis

giving us the names of people rescued or helped by the

Gods or some particular God when in distress. We

immediately recognize the contexts behind these names,

with or often without the accompanying clues, because we

have the even older stories recorded in the Puranas, Epics

and other traditional texts to give us the details.

• But the Rigveda being the oldest text, there are no older

records giving us the details and contexts of the names

given in the text unless the Rigveda itself gives them, so we

are left clueless.

 

 

What actually is the Rigvedic data?

• The Rigvedic data consists of two types of references:

• 1. Names of people helped or rescued by the Aśvins when

they are in distress.

• 2. Names of enemies destroyed by Indra for the sake of

certain protagonists.

• But, except for the names, and often single clues, we do not

have any details to reconstruct any history from these

references. Most of these names and events have been

totally forgotten by the time the Puranas and even the later

Vedic texts were composed, and a few names which appear

in the later texts contain later fabricated stories having no

actual connection with the possible events of Rigvedic

times.

• So by and large the data has little practical historical value,

except the more detailedly recorded Bharata Pūru battles.

 

 

The Pūru Wars of Ancient pre-Buddhist

India - 1

• Everyone knows about the most famous historical war in

ancient pre-Buddhist India: the Mahābhārata war, fought

between two clans of the Kuru Bharatas, who were a

branch of the Pūrus, one of the great mega-tribes of

ancient India. Most of the then kingdoms of North India are

believed to have participated in this Great War.

• But very few know about much more ancient earlier battles

fought by other Bharata Pūrus in more ancient times and

recorded in the Rigveda: even later Vedic and Puranic texts

are blank about these events, which were not so crucial for

Indian history and tradition. But these battles were

extremely important events from the point of view of Indo-

European, and particularly Indo-Iranian, history and the

history of world civilization.

 

 

The Pūru Wars of Ancient pre-Buddhist

India - 2

• The Bharata Pūrus, who lived mainly in the Kurukṣetra area

in Haryana, were a sub-tribe of the Pūrus. The Bharata Pūru

wars of the Rigveda spanned many generations of kings of a

clan descended from ancestral Bharata, and including many

important kings like Devavāta, Sṛñjaya, Divodāsa, Sudās,

Sahadeva and Somaka.

• Many generations separated Sudās from the earlier and

later kings.

• The Rigveda in its Old Books (Books 6,3,7,4,2) was a Book of

the Bharata Pūrus, and later, by the time of the New Books

(Books 5,1,8,9,10) it was a book of Pūrus in general, and the

kings of this dynasty were the heroes and protagonist kings

of the Old Books.

 

 

The Pūru Wars of Ancient pre-Buddhist

India - 3

• The Rigveda describes many battles, but the references to

them are so vague, ambiguous and skimpy that we cannot

derive any definite historical data from them.

• However the battles fought by the Bharatas at the time of

Sṛñjaya, Sudās and Sahadeva-Somaka stand apart because

they form a very important trans-generational continuum

of events which led to the emigration of the last four

(Iranian, Armenian, Greek and Albanian) of the twelve

branches of Indo-European (Aryan) languages from the

Original Proto-Indo-European Homeland in North India.

• 46% of the world speaks Indo-European languages as a first

language alone. The records of these battles in the Rigveda

provide us with the only recorded evidence in the world of

the Indo-European Homeland and Migrations.

 

 

The Pūru Wars of Ancient pre-Buddhist

India - 4

• These historical battles were:

• 1. The Battle of Hariyūpīyā in Haryana at the time of

Sṛñjaya.

• 2. The Battle of Ten Kings in the Punjab, the most important

of the numerous battles of Sudās.

• 3. The Vārṣāgira Battle in Afghanistan at the time of

Sahadeva and Somaka.

• These battles are important because they show the

progressive westward shifting of the battle lines between

the Bharata Pūrus (the Vedic Aryans) and the Anus (mainly

the Proto-Iranians) from Haryana to Afghanistan as the

Proto-Iranians emigrated out of India. The first battle stands

out since in the earliest period the two are still allies against

other tribes to their south.

 

 

First: Who are the "Vedic Aryans"?

• To understand Vedic history, we must first get out of

the false belief that the Rigveda, the oldest Vedic text,

is the ancestral text of all the people of India. It is not.

• It is a text of the Pūrus. In the period of the Old Books

(Books 6,3,7,4,2), it was a text of the Bharata Pūru sub-

tribe of the Pūru tribal conglomerate. Later in the

period of the New Books, it became a more general

Pūru book.

• The Pūrus were just one of the many Indo-European

tribal conglomerates of North India. They were settled

in Haryana and western and central Uttar Pradesh. The

Bharata Pūrus were the sub-tribe who lived in Haryana.

Other Pūru groups lived to their east.

 

 

Second: Who are the "Other" or non-

Vedic Indo-Europeans of North India?

• The other non-Vedic Indo-Europeans of North India were:

• 1. The Yadus (in the west) and the Turvasus (in the east) to

the south of the Pūrus: in southwestern U.P. and areas

south (their different sub-tribes extending perhaps up to

Gujarat, Madhya Pradesh and Maharashtra).

• 2. The Anus to the north and west of the Pūrus (in the

Punjab and areas further north) and the Druhyus (in

northwestern Punjab and further areas).

• 3. The Ikṣvākus to the east of the Pūrus in northeastern U.P

and Bihar.

• Further east and south were the Austric and Dravidian

language speaking people.

 

 

The Hariyūpīyā Battle

• This, the first of the historical Bharata-Pūru battles took

place in Haryana during the time of Sṛñjaya (the father of

Divodāsa). It is described in Book 6, in hymn VI.27.

• This battle took place on the banks of the Yavyāvatī and

Hariyūpīyā, two sister tributaries of the Sarasvatī.

• The Turvasus and the Yadus (Vṛcīvants) appear to have

invaded up to Haryana, and the Bharata Pūrus (under

Sṛñjaya) and their western neighbours the Anus (under the

Pārthava king Abhyāvartin Cāyamāna) jointly defeated the

Turvasus and Yadus.

• This battle is important only because it shows that in the

early period, the Bharata Pūrus and the Anus were allies, in

contrast to the situation in later times. Also it explains early

references to Haryana (Lake Manusha) in the Avesta.

 

 

The Battles of Sudās- 1

• Book 3 of the Rigveda (the book of the Viśvāmitras)

describes the commencement of the military activities of

the Bharata Pūru king Sudās, who comes many generations

after Divodāsa.

• 1. Hymn III.33 shows the Bharata Pūrus under Sudās

expanding westwards, crossing the Vipāś and Śutudrī

rivers.

• 2. Hymn III.53 describes a great yajña undertaken by the

Viśvāmitras for Sudās, after which a horse is released so

that Sudās can conquer "east, west and north" and gain

riches.

• However, specific battles and victories are not mentioned.

It is possible that this failure to achieve concrete results

induced Sudās to replace Viśvāmitra with Vasiṣṭha as his

priest.

 

 

The Battles of Sudās- 2

• The saga continues in Book 7 (the book of the Vasiṣṭhas).

hymns 18, 33 and 83 are the main hymns dealing with the

battles of Sudās, with supplementary references in hymn

19, and post-battle references in hymns 5 and 6.

• The hymns deal with Sudās’ battles in the east (mainly

around the banks of the river Yamunā) and his Great Battle,

the dāśarājña, in the west on the banks of the river

Paruṣṇī, the third and central river of the Punjab.

• It will be noticed that while the enemies on the east are

tribes recognizable as purely Indian even in the post-

Rigvedic scenario or by name, the enemies on the west are

not: the western ones in sharp contrast are tribes

identifiable with Iranian and other people of later times:

the linguistic ancestors of the Iranians, Armenians, Greeks

and Albanians.

 

 

The Eastern Opponents of Sudās-1

• The Battle Hymn VII.18 refers to the eastern as well as

the western battles of Sudās. The eastern battles are

referred to mainly in VII.18-20 and also in verses 6 and

13.

• Verse 19 makes it clear these battles took place on the

Yamunā .

• The enemies in these eastern battles are Bheda (18),

Bheda, Ajas, Śigrus and Yakṣus (19), Devaka

Manyamāna (20), Turvaṣa, Yakṣu and Matsya (6) and

perhaps also the ambiguous reference to Pūrus (13).

• It will be seen that these eastern names are very much

Indian even in post-Rigvedic times and are not

connected with the names of latter day Iranian or

other Indo-European tribes.

 

 

The Eastern Opponents of Sudās-2

• In short, the eastern opponents of Sudās were the Yadus,

Turvasus and the eastern (non-Bharata) Pūrus:

• 1. The Turvaṣas are directly mentioned (verse 6).

• 2. The Yadus are mentioned indirectly by a pun on the name

as Yakṣus (verses 6, 19). The Yadus and Turvasus are almost

always found together, and the word Yakṣu is identified by

Witzel as a pun on Yadu.

• 3. The Matsyas (verse 6) are clearly an eastern Pūru sub-

tribe, identifiable as the people (in all traditional historical

references) of the kingdom of Matsya on the Yamunā.

• The Ajas, Śigrus and Bheda and Devaka Manyamāna are not

exactly identifiable, but the words are certainly found in

later Sanskrit with other meanings. They may well be other

sub-tribes and kings of the Yadus, Turvasus and the eastern

(non-Bharata) Pūrus.

 

 

The Western Opponents of Sudās-1

• VII.83.1 names Dāsas, the Pṛthus/Pārthavas and Parśus/Parśavas

among the opponents of Sudās. All the others are named in hymn

VII.18:

• Verse 5: Śimyus.

• Verse 6: Bhṛgus, Druhyus.

• Verse 7: Alinas, Pakthas, Bhalānas, Śivas, Viṣāṇins.

• Verse 8. Kavi Cāyamāna.

• Verse 11. Vaikarṇas.

• Verse 12. Kavaṣa, Druhyu.

• It will be seen that all these names (mostly missing in later Indian

literature) are identifiable with the names of later historical Iranian,

Armenian, Greek and Albanian tribes, or are found in the Iranian

Avesta.

• Their exodus westward is referred to in VII.5.3 and VII.6.3.

 

 

The Western Opponents of Sudās-2

 

• Iranian tribes of Later Times:

• Afghanistan (in Avesta): Sairima (Śimyu), Dahi (Dāsa), Vaēkərəta

(Vaikarṇa).

• NE Afghanistan: Nuristani/Piśācin (Viṣāṇin).

• Pakhtoonistan (NW Pakistan), South Afghanistan: Pakhtoon/Pashtu

(Paktha).

• Baluchistan (SW Pakistan), SE Iran: Bolan/Baluchi (Bhalāna).

• NE Iran: Parthian/Parthava (Pṛthu/Pārthava).

• SW Iran: Parsua/Persian (Parśu/Parśava).

• [NW Iran: Madai/Mede (Madra): an Anu tribe not actually named

in the battle hymn].

• Uzbekistan: Khiva/Khwarezmian (Śiva).

• W. Turkmenistan: Dahae (Dāsa).

• Ukraine, S. Russia: Alan (Alina), Sarmatian (Śimyu).

 

 

The Western Opponents of Sudās-3

 

• Thraco-Phrygian/Armenian tribes of Later Times:

• Turkey: Phryge/Phrygian (Bhṛgu).

• Romania, Bulgaria: Dacian (Dāsa).

 

• Greek Tribes of Later Times:

• Greece: Hellene (Alina).

 

• Albanian/Illyrian Tribes of Later Times:

• Albania: Sirmio/Sirmium (Śimyu)

 

• Avestan Names:

• Kaoša (Kavaṣa the "old" priest of the Anu coalition and)

Kauui (Kavi the king leader of the Anu coalition).

 

 

The Western Opponents of Sudās-4

• All these tribes, located in the Punjab at the time of the

Dāśarājña, are found later spread out in a continuous belt

from the Punjab westwards to southeastern and eastern

Europe.

• They are all names found in just six verses from two hymns

out of the 1028 hymns and 10552 verses of the Rigveda, all

these names pertaining to a single historical event. They

cannot all be coincidentally cognate names.

• The above named historical Iranian tribes (particularly the

Alans and Sarmatians) include the linguistic ancestors of

almost all other prominent historical and modern Iranian

groups not named above, such as the Scythians (Sakas),

Ossetes and Kurds, and even the presently Slavic-language

speaking (but formerly Iranian-language speaking) Serbs,

Croats, Bulgarians and others.

 

 

The Western Opponents of Sudās-5

• We also see here an important historical phenomenon of

the trail of names: the tribal group which migrates furthest

retains its linguistic identity, while those of that tribe who

remain behind, or on the way, get linguistically absorbed

into the surrounding linguistic group:

• 1. Anu Alina, Iranian Alan, Greek Hellene.

• 2. Anu Śimyu, Avestan Sairima, Iranian

Sarmaha/Sarmatian, Albanian Sirmio/Sirmium.

• 3. Anu Bhṛgu/Atharvan, Iranian Athravan, Thraco-Phrygian

Bryge/Phryge.

• 4. Anu Madra, Iranian Mada.

• 5. Anu Dāsa, Avestan Dahi, Iranian Dahae, Thraco-Phrygian

Dacian.

 

 

The Vārṣāgira Battle-1

• This, the last of the historical Bharata-Pūru battles, took

place in Afghanistan during the time of Sahadeva and

Somaka (later descendants of Sudās), described or referred to in

Books 1 and 4: in hymn I.100 and in verse IV.30.18. Somaka

and Sāhadeva are also referred to in hymn IV.15.

• The importance of this battle is:

• 1. It represents the culmination of the Bharata Pūru

westward thrust.

• 2. It is also a battle recorded and remembered on both

sides, in the Rigveda as well as in the Iranian records (in the

Avesta and even in the far later traditions recorded in the

Shahnameh).

• 3. Its continuity with the Dāśarājña is reconfirmed by the

reference to the Śimyus (VII.18.5 and I.100.18), who are

not referred to anywhere else in any Vedic or later record.

 

 

The Vārṣāgira Battle-2

• Unlike the Dāśarājña references, the Vārṣāgira references

do not give details of the names of the proto-Iranian or Anu

enemies, except the Śimyus (I.100.18). But they name Arṇa

and Citraratha (IV.30.18) as enemies killed beyond the

Sarayu, and they are both emphatically described as

"āryas": i.e. they were Bharata Pūrus who had joined up

with the opponents.

• The five heroes of the hymns are Ṛjrāśva, Sahadeva,

Surādhas, Ambarīṣa and Bhayamāna (I.100.17).

• Another important word in this battle is grāma (I.100.10)

which is a special name for the troops of the Vārṣāgiras

(the five "heroes" named in I.100.17).

• As many of these "names" are cryptic, a little analysis is

required to decipher them, but with clear clues from the

Rigveda and the Iranian records.

 

 

The Vārṣāgira Battle-3

• 1. Arṇa and Citraratha are recorded as "aryas" (i.e.

Bharata Pūrus) who fought from the enemy side.

• Curiously, the Avesta records an Indo-Aryan hero who

fought on the Iranian side: Manušciθra. The Pahlavi

texts describe him as being born near the Manusha of

Yasht 19.1, i.e. in Haryana. According to the Cambridge

History of Iran, his name "means 'from the race of

Manu', and refers to the ancient mythical figure,

History of Iran, his name "means 'from the race of

Manu', and refers to the ancient mythical figure,

Manu, son of Vivasvant, who was regarded in India as

the first man and founder of the human race. He has

no place in Iranian tradition, where his role is played

by Yima and later Gayōmard".

• Farvardīn Yasht 131 refers to him as "(Manuš)ciθra,

son of Airyu": in the Rigveda Citra(ratha) son of Arṇa.

 

 

The Vārṣāgira Battle-4

• 2. Ṛjrāśva is directly identifiable. The Iranian traditions

distinctly remember the main leader of the Turanian

(enemy) side in the conflict: the leader is Arəjəţ.aspa

(in later texts, Arjāspa). Clearly, this is Ṛjrāśva.

• 3. Sahadeva is also clearly identifiable. The Shahname

(chapter 462) records another main companion or

brother of Arəjəţ.aspa who led his troops from the

rear: Hushdiv. Clearly this is Sahadeva (whose

equivalent name in the Avestan language would be

Hazadaeva, which becomes Hushdiv in the late

Shahname).

 

 

The Vārṣāgira Battle-5

• 4. Surādhas is more cryptic, but equally definite: it is clearly

a family nickname for Sudās (meaning "bountiful", the

same meaning as Sudās) and his descendants, and in this

case since Sahadeva is already named it must stand for

Somaka:

• a. In all the six family books (2-7) this word is found only in

two hymns: III.33 and 53: exactly the two hymns in Book 3

which deal with the battles of Sudās, and thrice in Book 4,

the book of Somaka Sāhadevya: IV.2.4; 5.4; 17.8.

• b. The Avesta (Aban Yašt 113) refers to Arəjəţ.aspa along

with his brother Humayāka who is referred to as the

"worshipper of the Daevas". Clearly this is Somaka.

• c. Parsi scholar E. Sheheriarji also connects up Surādhas

with Humayaka on the ground that both mean "one with

much wealth".

 

 

The Vārṣāgira Battle-6

• 5. Ambarīṣa and Bhayamāna are not found in similar

forms in the Iranian records, and are therefore not so

immediately identifiable in the Iranian records.

[Ambarīṣa is an Ikṣvāku family name, and as the

northwestern branch of the Ikṣvākus were allies of the

Bharata Pūrus, it is possible that they were

northwestern Ikṣvākus, but that is irrelevant here].

• But, for what it is worth, E. Sheheriarji identifies them

with two other family members of Arəjəţ.aspa:

Vidarafshnik, a brother of Arəjəţ.aspa, and

Vandaremaini, father of Arəjəţ.aspa (who is named in

the Aban Yašt 116 with Arəjəţ.aspa) on the grounds

that Ambarīṣa and Vidarafshnik both mean "the one

with beautiful garments", and Bhayamāna and

Vandaremaini both mean "the fearless one".

 

 

The Vārṣāgira Battle-7

• 6. Finally the word grāma: the name for the troops of

the Bharata Pūrus. This word is found only twice in the

Old Books of the Rigveda (2,3,4,6,7): in III.33.1 it refers

to the Bharata Pūru troops under Sudās. In II.12.7 it is

found in its later, new and present meaning of "village".

In the New Books (1,5,8,9,10) it is found 10 times as

"village" and it is only in I.100.10 that it is used for the

Bharata Pūru troops of Sahadeva and his companions.

• In the oldest part of the Avesta, Zarathushtra (in Yasna

32.12-14) refers to the grәhma as the most powerful

and persistent of his enemies.

• The Vārṣāgira battle is thus recorded in both the

Rigveda as well as the Iranian records.

 

 

Parthian kings: Haryana to Afghanistan

• The ancient Parthians seem to have been the leaders of the

Iranians in their earliest times:

• 1. In the oldest book of the Rigveda, book 6, the leader of

the proto-Iranian Anus is Abhyāvartin Cāyamāna, a

Pārthava (Parthian) in Haryana.

• 2. In book 7, the leader of the all-Anu (proto-Iranian)

coalition is Kavi Cāyamāna, in the Punjab.

• 3. In the Avesta, the Royal Dynasty of the Iranians is the

Kauuiiān dynasty (descended from Kauui), in Afghanistan.

• In later times, it is the Parthians who claimed that the

Kauuiiān dynasty of the Avesta were a Parthian dynasty.

• The emigration of the Iranians from the borders of Haryana

to the mountains of Afghanistan, long before they entered

Iran and Central Asia, is therefore a matter of record.

 

 

The Bigger Picture-1

• The Rigveda and other Vedic texts and the Puranas and

Epics refer to countless battles and wars. Most of them

were local affairs and did not leave detailed traditional

memories in the Indian psyche. The Bharata Pūru battles

were just such battles, which did not leave details beyond

the few hymns and verses which deal with them, and were

therefore forgotten by Indian tradition.

• However, they are extremely important to us in the modern

context, particularly the Dāśarājña and the Vārṣāgira

battles, because they provide us with actual recorded

details about extremely crucial ancient events, and help us

to solve the biggest historical mystery of all time: the

problem of the Original Homeland and the migrations of

the speakers of the Indo-European ("Aryan") family of

languages (which are today first languages to 46% of the

population of the world).

 

 

The Bigger Picture-2

• As per the linguistic analysis of the Indo-European languages, there

are twelve known branches which were settled in and around the

Original Homeland (wherever it was) until roughly around 3000 BCE

after which they started emigrating out of the Homeland.

• The Anatolian (Hittite) and Tocharian branches in that order were

the first two to emigrate.

• The next to emigrate were the five "European" or "northwestern"

branches: Italic, Celtic, Germanic, Baltic and Slavic.

• Finally only the five "Last Branches" were left in the Homeland:

Albanian, Greek, Armenian/Thraco-Phrygian, Iranian and Indo-

Aryan (Vedic).

• This linguistically arrived-at paradigm is found actually recorded in

the names of the tribes in the Battle of Ten Kings in the Rigveda,

where all the tribes in the battle belong to these very same five

"Last Branches" , thus settling the issue of the geographical location

of this Original Homeland once and for all.

 

 

The Bigger Picture-3

• There were three streams of migrations of the Indo-

European tribes and branches from India:

• 1. The events of the Bharata-Pūru battles led to the Third

Great Migration of the Four (Anu) Last Branches: Albanian,

Greek, Armenian and Iranian westwards through

Afghanistan into West Asia and beyond.

• 2. The first Early Migrations were of the Anatolian and

Tocharian branches which migrated northwards from

Afghanistan into Central Asia and settled down there for

many centuries (Tocharian till it became extinct) in the

western and eastern parts of Central Asia: they are

remembered in later Puranic traditions as the Uttara-

Madra and Uttara-Kuru respectively.

• Detailed and conclusive evidence on all the migrations are

given in greater detail in my books and blogs.

 

 

The Bigger Picture-4

• 3. The Second Great Migration of the Druhyu tribes,

linguistic ancestors of the five European Branches (Italic,

Celtic, Germanic, Baltic and Slavic) took place in the pre-

Rigvedic period.

• The early stage of these migrations are actually recorded in

the Puranic traditions (Vāyu P. 99.11-12; Brahmāṇḍa P.

III.74-11-12, Matsya P. 48.9; Viṣṇu P. IV.17.5; Bhāgavata P.

IX.23.15-16). The tribes migrated northwards from

Afghanistan into Central Asia. Later on, they migrated

northwestwards all the way to Europe.

• Remnants of the Druhyus are still found as western allies of

the Anus in the Dāśarājña Battle. But later they fade away

from the pages of traditional Indian history.

• The priestly class of the Druhyus (the Celtic Druids) are

remembered as enemy priests in the Rigveda and Avesta.

 

 

The Bigger Picture-5

• In sum, it is impossible to arrive at a correct understanding

of Rigvedic history without understanding that Vedic

culture and religion were not the ancestral culture or

religion of the whole of India but only of the Pūrus. There

was a type of religion common to the Druhyus, Anus and

Pūrus, consisting of ritual fire worship (yajñas, etc.), nature

worship and the composition, memorization and recitation

of hymns.

• As the Pūru culture spread over India, all the religions of

India merged together into what we call Hinduism today:

the Vedic culture of the Pūrus, the nature religions of the

Yadus, the philosophical systems of the Ikṣvākus, the

tantric systems of the east, the idol culture and temple

culture of Central and South India, etc.

 

 

The Bigger Picture-6

• The most important aspect of the data on the Bharata Pūru

battles in the Rigveda is that it provides direct recorded

evidence that the PIE Homeland from where the Last

Branches emigrated was North India.

• This location of the Homeland (the OIT) is further proved

independently and equally conclusively by:

• 1. An examination of all the Linguistic evidence.

• 2. The datable evidence of the recorded Mitanni material in

West Asia which proves that the Rigveda goes back to

beyond 3000 BCE in Haryana.

• 3. An examination of the fake and fraudulent "genetic"

evidence claimed by fraudulent geneticists.

• But these are independent subjects not part of the subject

of this particular talk