Thursday, 10 June 2021

THE HORSE AND THE CHARIOT IN THE AIT-OIT DEBATE

 

THE HORSE AND THE CHARIOT IN THE AIT-OIT DEBATE

The utter irrelevance of the two factors which have been inflated into big issues.

[This is a word-document form of the power-point presentation used by me in my talk on Kushal Mehra's Carvaka Podcast, "THE HORSE AND THE CHARIOT IN THE AIT-OIT DEBATE" on 9/6/2021, available on youtube.

This also includes two additional slides to explain a point raised again by Kushal after the talk concluded].


 

Linking Indo-European Languages to

Horses and Chariots-1

• We have the recent phenomenon of geneticists trying to

trace the movement of the IE languages by identifying

certain genes or haplogroups as "Aryan"/"IE".

• But long before this we already had the equally untenable

phenomenon of historians trying to trace the movement of

the IE languages by identifying certain animals and material

objects (namely the horse and the chariot) as "Aryan"/"IE".

• Certain books pursuing this approach, such as David W.

Anthony’s "The Horse the Wheel and Language" (2007),

have almost acquired a gospel status and a massive and

fanatical cult following.

• It is therefore time to examine this issue thoroughly, and

separate the grain from the chaff. It will be seen how the

power of confident and persistent assertion, coupled with

the prevalence of herd mentality, can muddy the waters.

 

Linking Indo-European Languages to

Horses and Chariots-2

• Before going into the specifics of the horse-chariot

syndrome, (a) in general and (b) with specific reference to

the Indian (AIT/OIT) case, we must take note of this

extremely illogical and untenable dogma linking

animals/objects with linguistic identities and homelands.

• By this logic, the fact that Romans were addicted to Indian

spices proves that they emigrated from India, or that

Indians predominantly use potatoes and chilies in their

cuisine proves they immigrated into India from the

Americas!

• Such logic is not applied to Romans and Indians, since

centuries of recorded history testify to the true situation. In

respect of the Vedic people vis-à-vis Soma or horses, the

records are not so specific and detailed, and therefore the

narrative has become susceptible to misrepresentation.

 

"Horses" and "Chariots" in General

• Before going into the specifics of the Indian

(AIT/OIT) case, some very basic aspects of

animal-vehicle associations, especially with

reference to the horse, must be noted:

• 1. The five stages of horse use by humans.

• 2. "Cart-vs.-Chariot": the three aspects of

animal-vehicle development.

• 3. The northern equid zone vs. the southern

equid zone.

 

The five stages of horse use by humans

• Horses, and all equids and most "beasts of burden",

had five stages of use by man:

• 1. For meat, milk and hide.

• 2. With vehicles for transport.

• 3. With vehicles for racing.

• 4. With vehicles for war.

• 5. For mounted riding.

• The first stage, for horses, was restricted to the

Steppes, and the last stage came into being only

around 1000 BCE.

The stages relevant to the subject of the history of

Indo-European origins are the three middle stages.

 

"Cart-vs.-Chariot": the three aspects of

animal-vehicle development-1

• In popular perception there is a distinct difference

between a "cart" and a "chariot": a "cart" is a clumsy

heavy vehicle pulled mainly by oxen (or animals other

than horses) and has four solid wheels. A "chariot" is a

light speedy vehicle pulled by horses and has two

spoked wheels.

• People tend to transpose this distinction in meaning

into the past and impose it on old words for animal-

drawn vehicles, such as ratha. However this is a wrong

and simplistic view.

• Actually the development of animal-vehicles involved

(at least) three distinctly different lines of development

which did not take place in tandem with each other,

and we therefore have a wide range of vehicle types.

 

"Cart-vs.-Chariot": the three aspects of

animal-vehicle development-2

• Thus:

• 1. Type of wheels: earlier solid wheels. Later spoked

wheels.

• 2. Number of wheels: earlier four wheels. Later two

wheels.

• 3. Animal: earlier oxen/onagers/asses. Later horses.

• Except that the war chariot generally tended to be a

"chariot proper" (horses with two spoked wheels), we

still find all kinds of combinations of the old and new

features: bullock carts with two spoked wheels, horse-

drawn post-chaises and royal "chariots" with four

spoked wheels, etc. Toy vehicles still often have solid

wheels. Therefore a dogmatic interpretation of old

words without corroborating data is disastrous.

 

The northern equid zone vs. the

southern equid zone

• Eurasia is divided into a north and a south by huge

mountain ranges stretching from east to west.

• The northern equid zone, from Ukraine in the west to

Mongolia in the east and Central Asia in the south is the

home of both equus ferus (the horse) as well as of onager

species. But the southern equid zone, which covers two

distinct civilizational areas, West Asia and India, only has

species of onagers/wild asses.

• Basically, many of the same features apply to both areas,

but this fact is not recognized, since the vital difference

between the two areas is that West Asia has detailed

written records and pictorial/material representations of its

equid history at all stages while India does not.

This facilitates extraneous interpretations, assumptions,

and misrepresentations on every point in respect of India.

 

West Asian area vis-à-vis Indian area

• The detailed recorded evidence from West Asia shows that

they had wheeled vehicles from 3500-3350 BCE

(Sumerians). These were originally pulled by oxen, later

also by onagers/wild asses. Horses came on the scene after

2000 BCE.

• India, as the evidence shows, independently had wheeled

vehicles from 3500 BCE, likewise initially pulled by oxen.

• The big difference is:

• 1. West Asia was separated by Anatolia and the Caucasian

areas from the northern equid zone.

• 2. India, or the Vedic-Harappan area of NW India relevant

to our study, apart from having onagers on both sides, in

Kutch and present-day northern Pakistan to Ladakh, was

directly connected with the northern equid zone in Central

Asia, and formed a cultural continuum with that area.

 

Assumptions and Misrepresentations

• Apart from the weird idea that horses and Indo-

Europeans are somehow identical entities, many other

ideas, totally contradictory to the data and evidence,

dominate the "Aryan horse and chariot" narrative, but

they all revolve around the following two main ideas:

• 1. IE speakers first introduced the aśva=horse into non-

IE India from the Steppes through Central Asia around

or after 2000 BCE.

• 2. IE speakers introduced the ratha=spoked-wheel

chariot into India, and these chariots are common

throughout the Rigvedic period, and central to the

Rigvedic identity.

• We will now examine what the actual data and

evidence says about these different assumptions.

 

The fake "horse bones" argument-1

• The main signature argument is that horse bones are not

found in India before post-Harappan times, and they are

found first in the northwest only after "Aryans" entered

India after 2000 BCE.

This is the most fake and fraudulent argument of them all,

and yet it is the main and most popular one discussed

threadbare by all the participants in the AIT-OIT debate.

• It is a "heads-I-win-tails-you-lose" argument by the AIT side

which involves the highest amount of one-sidedness and

special pleading of any argument in the debate. Even at

best what it says is "lack of horse bones in the Harappan

period proves there were no horses in India, but lack of

horse bones in the post-Harappan periods makes no

difference: even if horse-bones are not found it means

nothing since we know from written records that there

were horses in India"!!!

 

The fake "horse bones" argument-2

• Edwin Bryant points out: "The report claiming the earliest date for

the domesticated horse in India, ca. 4500 B.C.E., comes from a

find from Bagor, Rajasthan, at the base of the Aravalli Hills (Ghosh

1989a, 4). In Rana Ghundai, Baluchistan, excavated by E. J. Ross,

equine teeth were reported from a pre-Harappan level (Guha and

Chatterjee 1946, 315–316). …equine bones have been reported

from Mahagara, near Allahabad, where six sample absolute

carbon 14 tests have given dates ranging from 2265 B.C.E. to 1480

B.C.E. (Sharma et al. 1980, 220–221). Even more significantly,

horse bones from the Neolithic site Hallur in Karnataka (1500–

1300 B.C.E.) have also been identified by the archaeozoologist K.

R. Alur (1971, 123). [.......] In the Indus Valley and its environs,

Sewell and Guha, as early as 1931, had reported the existence of

the true horse, Equus caballus Linn from Mohenjo-Daro itself, and

Bholanath (1963) reported the same from Harappa, Ropar, and

Lothal. Even Mortimer Wheeler identified a horse figurine and

accepted that ‘it is likely enough that camel, horse and ass were in

fact all a familiar feature of the Indus caravan’ (92)." (BRYANT

2001:169-170).

 

The fake "horse bones" argument-3

• [quote continued]: "Mackay, in 1938….identified a clay model of

the animal at Mohenjo-Daro. Piggott (1952, 126, 130) reports a

horse figurine from Periano Ghundai in the Indus Valley, dated

somewhere between Early Dynastic and Akkadian times. Bones

from Harappa, previously thought to have belonged to the

domestic ass, have been reportedly critically re-examined and

attributed to a small horse (Sharma 1992–93, 31). Additional

evidence of the horse in the form of bones, teeth, or figurines has

been reported in other Indus sites such as Kalibangan (Sharma

1992–93, 31); Lothal (Rao 1979), Surkotada (Sharma 1974), and

Malvan (Sharma 1992–93, 32). Other later sites include the Swat

Valley (Stacul 1969); Gumla (Sankalia 1974, 330); Pirak (Jarrige

1985); Kuntasi (Sharma 1995, 24); and Rangpur (Rao 1979, 219)."

(BRYANT 2001:169-170).

• Also, horse bones (Dhawalikar), and a terracotta figurine of a horse,

have been found at Kayatha in Madhya Pradesh in all the

chalcolithic levels, dated 2450-2000 BCE. Also there is a distinct

horse figure in a "chess set" found at Lothal.

 

The fake "horse bones" argument-4

• So are all these archaeologists and scholars liars and frauds? The

"no horse bones" insisters get away with simply stonewalling the

evidence and continuing to parrot their claim.

• But one prominent case forced their attention: bones from

Surkotada in Kutch "J. P Joshi, and A. K. Sharma…subsequently

reported the identification of horse bones from all levels of this

site (circa 2100–1700 B.C.E.). In addition to bones from Equus

asinus and Equus hemionus khur, Sharma reported the existence

of incisor and molar teeth, various phalanges, and other bones

from Equus caballus Linn (Sharma 1974, 76) [....] Sandor Bökönyi,

of incisor and molar teeth, various phalanges, and other bones

from Equus caballus Linn (Sharma 1974, 76) [....] Sandor Bökönyi,

a Hungarian archaeologist and one of the world's leading horse

specialists….verified that the bones were, indeed, of the

domesticated Equus caballus: ‘The occurrence of true horse

(Equus caballus L.) was evidenced by the enamel pattern of the

upper and lower cheek and teeth and by the size and form of

incisors and phalanges. Since no wild horses lived in India in post-

pleistocene times, the domestic nature of the Surkotada horses is

undoubtful’"(BRYANT 2001:170-171).

 

The fake "horse bones" argument-5

• However, RH Meadow took up the issue and rejected Bokonyi’s

strong identification on the grounds that "the remains of the Equus

ferus caballus horse are difficult to distinguish from other equid

species such as Equus asinus (donkeys) or Equus hemionus

(onagers)". Unfortunately, Bökönyi died before he could reply.

• But what Meadow said cuts both ways: if the bones of the horse

cannot be distinguished easily from the bones of donkeys and

onagers, then it is time to stop quibbling about whether equid

bones belong to horses or to donkeys/onagers, and simply accept

them as equid bones.

• To begin with, the wild horses till a thousand or so years ago were

not much bigger than onagers or donkeys: they were just "a bit

over four feet" although in practice these horses "proved vastly

superior to onagers as pullers of chariots" ("The First Horsemen",

Time-Life Books, 1974, p.48). The horse was just more efficient and

powerful than the onager or donkey, and therefore replaced them.

Its present size and powerful capabilities are due to sustained

breeding and training.

 

The fake "horse bones" argument-6

• Even more pertinent: it is time for us to stop this

compulsive-loser attitude of permanently being on the

defensive and allowing the AIT warriors to permanently

avoid discussing the actual pro-OIT data and evidence and

only concentrate on discussing fake AIT non-evidence.

First, it is time for us to refuse to allow the AIT side to

stonewall the very significant evidence of horse bones in

pre-2000 BCE India, and to force them to examine and

accept each valid piece of evidence on impartial grounds.

Second, and more important, it is time for us to demand a

complete inventory of their "evidence" for the claims that

horse bones appear in India only as per their time schedule

of the alleged "Aryan" entry into India and dispersal into

different parts of the interior areas. In short, it is time for

them to present their "evidence", and us to examine it.

 

The fake "horse bones" argument-7

• H Hock brushes aside the evidence of horse-bones without

examination on the ground that it is meagre and is not

"comparable to the cultural and religious significance of

the horse" in the Rigveda (HOCK 1999a:12-13).

Now it is time for them to produce and us to examine:

• 1. The full data showing the trail of horse bones from the

Steppes to Central Asia.

• 2. The data on horse bones in the BMAC in Central Asia

(where the "Indo-Iranians" are alleged to have settled

before entering India and Afghanistan respectively). Here

they already lose the debate since horse bones are almost

completely absent in the BMAC!

• 3. The full data (separately) on horse bones in

archaeological sites in India between 1500 BCE-1000 BCE

and between 1000 BCE-500 BCE.

 

The fake "horse bones" argument-8

• And all this data must not only show a sudden massive

presence of horse bones in the respective areas concerned

in line with the alleged time-schedule of the "Aryan" entry

into India and their step-by-step spread into the interior

areas, but it should also be "comparable to the cultural

and religious significance of the horse" in the Rigveda.

Until all this evidence is produced, presented and

examined, there should be a complete moratorium on any

discussion or debate on the question of horse bones in

India as an item of evidence for the theory that "Aryans"

first brought the horse into India after 2000 BCE.

Until all this evidence is produced, presented and

examined, the question of the presence or absence of

horse bones in ancient India should be accepted as

irrelevant to the AIT-OIT debate.

 

Did "Aryans" introduce the horse into India?-1

• The English or Indian names ananas, papaya, chiku/sapota,

potato/batata, tomato/tamatar, tobacco/tambaku, cocoa,

cashew/kaju, guava, chilli are not English or Indian names:

they are derivatives of native American names for the

products which came from the Americas. Chai/tea are also

not Indian or English names, they are Chinese names for

the product which originally came from China (although

later a separate Indian sub-species was discovered by the

British in Assam and became Indian tea). Coffee/kapi is a

late import from West Asia, although a native of Africa, and

the names are derived from the Arabic name qahwah

(originally a kind of wine). The word pepper is derived from

the Indian word pippali.

• If the "Aryans" brought the horse into India, the name for

the horse in the non-IE languages of India should have been

borrowed or derived from the IE/ Vedic (or Sanskrit) names.

 

Did "Aryans" introduce the horse into India?-2

• The Vedic and later Sanskrit words for "horse" are aśva, arvant or

arvvā, haya, vājin, sapti, turanga, kilvī, pracelaka.

• 1. Dravidian languages have kudirai, ivuḷi, parī and .

• 2. Austric (Kol-Munda) languages have sādom.

• 3. Modern Indo-Aryan languages (except the archaic Sinhalese

asuwa) have words derived from late Sanskrit ghoṭaka, which is

often alleged to be a "non-Aryan" word!!

• Witzel points out that the Indo-Aryan and Dravidian words for horse

"are quite different from each other….Obviously, use of horses is

not linked to speakers of an IA language" (WITZEL 2000a: §15)."

• Encyclopaedia Britannica, 15 th edition, Vol. 9, p.348: "Curiously,

however, it is precisely in those regions that used iron, and were

associated with the horse, that the Indo-Aryan languages did not

spread. Even today, these are the regions of the Dravidian

language group".

 

Is aśva=equus ferus, the horse?-1

• The word aśva, as well as the original PIE word *ekwos

from which it is derived, are taken to originally mean

specifically equus ferus, the northern horse. However, this

is only a presumption of the Steppe Homeland theory: the

word originally referred to any equid animal (as the genus

name equus and word equid still do in zoological and

general terminology). The PIEs in their homeland were

indeed familiar with equus ferus, but so were they familiar

with other equid species (onager, wild ass).

• In the OIT scenario, they were familiar with equus ferus

because the contiguous PIE area, by pre-Rigvedic times,

had already spread out to include the horse-rich areas of

Central Asia, where the Druhyu groups, the Uttara-Madra

(Hittites) and Uttara-Kuru (Tocharians) as also the later

European branches were already very much present.

 

Is aśva=equus ferus, the horse?-2

• Even as per accepted wisdom, the earliest domesticated

horse is found not in Ukraine but at Botai in Kazakhstan,

which is almost equidistant from Afghanistan and Ukraine.

• As per newer findings, the first domesticated horse could

have been even closer: in Uzbekistan to the north of

Afghanistan as early as 6000 BCE. (LASOTA-MOSKALEWSKA

2009: A Problem of the Earliest Horse Domestication. Data

from the Neolithic Camp Ayakagytma 'The Site',

Uzbekistan, Central Asia. pp. 14-21, Archaeologia Baltica

Volume 11, Klaipeda University, Lithuania, 2009).

Horses, whether fully domesticated, or in various stages of

semi-domestication, were already abundantly present in

human settlements to the immediate north of Afghanistan

as far back as 6000 BCE, and so at least well known to the

PIEs, and to the Vedic people, by 3500 BCE at the very least.

 

Is aśva=equus ferus, the horse?-3

• The Rigvedic aśva originally referred to both the onager or

wild ass as well as to the superior horse of the north locally

familiar to the Druhyus who had spread out into Central

Asia in pre-Rigvedic times.

• As in Mesopotamia, the onager was probably commonly

harnessed to the cart/chariot in the Vedic/Harappan areas

(mainly for transport and racing), but, as the Rigvedic data

shows, the northern horse was also known, as a rare, prized

and superior animal imported through the northwest.

• It is only in the New Rigveda that the northern horse came

to be increasingly used with chariots (especially the new

spoked-wheel ones), but still mainly for racing.

• War-chariots came into use mainly around 1500 BCE, when

horse-chariots became common everywhere, including in

Greece and West Asia, and in the Mahabharata.

 

Is aśva=equus ferus, the horse?-4

• The evidence for the late and northwestern nature of the

horse in the Rigvedic culture is overwhelming:

• 1. The only two deified or glorified horses in the Rigveda,

both race-horses, are identified with the Tṛkṣis of the

northernmost Swat area: Dadhikrās (identified with

Trasadasyu) and Tārkṣya (identified by the name itself).

• 2. The horse is associated with the northwestern Soma

areas, and the Bhṛgu rishi Dadhyañc, who introduced the

secrets of the northwestern Soma to Indra, is supposed to

have the head of a horse (I.116.12; 117.22; 119.9).

• 3. Horses are rare and prized animals in the Old Rigveda: so

rare that Sudās is presented with horse-heads as tribute by

supplicant or defeated tribes (VII.18.19).

• 4. Personal names with aśva only appear in the New

Rigveda (see later along with the names with ratha).

 

Is aśva=equus ferus, the horse?-5

• 5. Perhaps it is also interesting that two distinct aspects of

the post-Rigvedic horse-sacrifice are found in two different

parts of the Rigveda: the release of a horse in the open and

battle with anyone who tries to capture it is the first aspect,

which shows the animal to be a rare and coveted one, for

possessing which kings or tribes could enter into war. This is

the only aspect found in the Old Rigveda (III.53), where

there is no reference to the rare animal being actually

ritually killed.

• Everything else connected with the actual ritual horse

sacrifice is found only in the New Rigveda, by which time

possibly horses from the northwest were more easily

available. Hymns I.162-163 describe the actual ritual horse

sacrifice, X.157.1-3 were the verses recited at the sacrifice,

and the word aśvamedha (though only as a personal name)

is found only in V.27.5; VIII.68.15-16.

 

Wheeled vehicles in Harappan sites-1

• [Wheeled Vehicles of the Indus Valley Civilization of

Pakistan and India- MJ Kenoyer, 2004]:

• As "wood remains are not preserved from Indus sites and

there are no graphic depictions of carts, most evidence for

wheeled vehicles comes from terracotta and bronze

model carts and wheels". But these show "both heavy and

light wheeled vehicles", "wide range of cart types",

"diversity in carts and wheels, including depictions of

what may be spoked wheels".

• About "the lighter form of cart…some of them are quite

small and may represent vehicles that were used by a

single rider for racing or fast transport".

• "The diversity of model carts …is quite significant…it is

unclear why scholars have ignored the complexity and

specialization of Indus transport".

 

Wheeled vehicles in Harappan sites-2

• "The earliest wheeled vehicles were developed in an

alluvial plane, but it was in the Indus Valley itself rather

than in Central Asia. At Harappa we find evidence for the

use of terracotta carts as early as 3500 BC during the Ravi

phase".

• During the "(Harappa phase 2600-1900 BC) there was a

dramatic increase in terracotta cart and wheel

types…including depictions of what may be spoked

wheels".

• "The unique forms and the early appearance of

carts…suggest that they are the result of indigenous

development and not diffusion from West Asia or Central

Asia as proposed by earlier scholars". And again, "the

result of indigenous processes and not the result of

diffusion from mountainous regions to the west".

 

Is ratha=spoked-wheel chariot?-1

• AIT supporters claim the "Aryans" entered India all the way

from Ukraine with spoked-wheel chariots=ratha:

• "those familiar with Indo-European linguistic paleontology

and with the archeological evidence in Eurasia agree that

the use of the domesticated horse spread out of the

steppes of the Ukraine, and so did the horse-drawn two-

wheeled battle chariot…these features spread into India

along with the migration of Indo-Aryan speakers." (HOCK

1999a:12-13).

• "linguistic and textual studies confirm the presence of an

outside, Indo-Aryan speaking element, whose language

and spiritual culture has definitely been introduced, along

with the horse and the spoked wheel chariot, via the

BMAC area into northwestern South Asia" (WITZEL

2000a:§15).

 

Is ratha=spoked-wheel chariot?-2

• Apart from the fact that (a) such chariots could not

possibly have crossed all the way from Ukraine to the

Punjab over mountainous regions, and (b) not a single

such chariot belonging to the alleged immigrating Indo-

Aryans has yet been discovered anywhere, the word

ratha very clearly originally, and even for quite some

time after the invention of spoked wheels, meant any

"wheeled vehicle" and not just a "two-spoked-wheel-

horse-chariot":

• 1. The words related to ratha in Celtic (Irish rath), Italic

(Latin rota), Germanic (German rad) and Baltic

(Lithuanian ratas) mean simply "wheel" or "cart" and

it is only in later Sanskrit usage that it came to mean

specifically "chariot".

 

Is ratha=spoked-wheel chariot?-3

• 2. In the Old Rigveda, there is no separate word for "cart":

ratha means "cart". Later in the New Rigveda, the word

anas is contrasted (at least by the philologists) with the

word ratha, where anas means specifically a "cart".

• But the word anas is found only thrice in the Old Rigveda,

in two cases (II.15.6 and IV.30.10,11) referring only to the

divine vehicle of Uṣas (Dawn): originally derived from the

same root an- ("to breathe", perhaps indicating the first

breath, or birth, of day) as the later word anala "fire",

representing the rising sun.

• In the only other hymn III.33.9,10, it is combined with the

word ratha to show its extended meaning of "cart".

• In the New Rigveda, it is found 10 times: 8 times with the

specific meaning of "cart" and 2 times as the divine vehicle

of Dawn.

 

The origin of spoked-wheel chariots-1

• The spoked-wheel chariot clearly originated after the

different IE branches had separated from each other,

since there is no common word for spokes in any two

of the twelve branches.

• As Trippett puts it (In "The First Horsemen", Time-Life

Books, 1974), "Just where the spoked-wheel

originated no-one knows".

• However, the Rigveda is the only text in the world

which clearly shows a distinction between two

chronological periods, an earlier period without spokes

and a later period with spokes. Therefore, it is clear

that the spoked wheel was invented in the Rigvedic

period and within the Rigvedic geographical horizon,

though not necessarily by the Pūrus (Vedic people).

 

The origin of spoked-wheel chariots-2

• The spoked-wheel chariot appears only in the New

Rigveda and its appearance clearly heralds a new

cultural phase in the Vedic culture:

• 1. Spokes (ara) are mentioned only in the New Rigveda:

V.13.6; 58.5.

I.32.15; 141.9; 164.11,12,13,48.

VIII.20.14; 77.3.

X.78.4.

• 2. The Bhṛgus (IV.16.20) and the Anus (V.31.4) are

credited with inventing the chariot for Indra. This may

show the direction of movement of innovations

concerning the horse and the chariot.

 

The origin of spoked-wheel chariots-3

• 3. Names with aśva and ratha appear among composer

names in the Rigveda only in the books of the New

Rigveda, signifying a sudden sea-change in the

importance of horses and horse-drawn chariots in the

period of the New Rigveda. They appear in the

composer names of the following hymns:

V.47, 52-61, 81-82 (13 hymns).

I.100 (1 hymn).

VIII. 14-15, 23-26, 35-38, 46 (11 hymns).

IX.32, 101 (2 hymns).

X.102, 103, 134 (3 hymns).

 

The origin of spoked-wheel chariots-4

• Likewise, names with aśva and ratha appear within the

hymns of the Rigveda only in the books of the New Rigveda

(and in one Redacted Hymn). They appear as follows:

IV.30.18 (REDACTED HYMN).

V.27.4-6; 33.9; 36.6; 52.1; 61.5,10,18-19; 79.2 (6 hymns, 11

verses).

I.36.18; 100.16-17; 112.10,15; 116.6,16; 117.17,18; 122.7 (6

hymns, 10 verses).

VIII.1.30,32; 9.10; 23.16,23-24; 24.14,22-23,28-29; 26.9,11;

35.19-21; 36.7; 37.7; 38.8; 46.21,23; 68.15,16 (11 hymns,

23 verses).

IX.65.7 (1 hymn, 1 verse).

X.49.6; 60.5; 61.21 (3 hymns, 3 verses).

 

The origin of spoked-wheel chariots-5

• Spoked-wheel chariots appear in West Asia around

1800 BCE. It cannot be a coincidence that their

appearance in West Asia coincided with the

appearance in West Asia of the Mitanni, the elephant,

the zebu (Indian) cattle and the peacock.

• The Mitanni left India in the period of the New

Rigveda, when horse-racing was common but war-

chariots had not yet acquired prominence. Strangely,

the Mitanni are most well known for Kikkuli’s manual

on training of horses for racing.

• It is possible that the chariots that the Mitanni were

familiar with, for racing, were spoked-wheel chariots,

and it is they who introduced these chariots into West

Asia.

 

To Sum Up

• 1. Where horses were domesticated has nothing to do with

the homeland or movements of IE peoples, and no-one has

been able to show movements of horses and chariots from

the Ukraine to India in the required time-frames.

• 2. Horses, in any case, were first domesticated closer to

home, in Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan.

• 3. Carts were independently invented in the Harappan

areas, and spoked-wheel chariots developed in the period

of the New Rigveda in a northwestern area within the

geographical horizon of the text.

• 4. Horses and spoked-wheel chariots are common and

prominent as features of the Rigvedic ethos and culture

only in the New Rigveda.

• Therefore the horse-chariot argument is invalid as an

argument for the AIT.

 

 

ADDITIONAL TWO SLIDES PREPARED AFTER THE TALK TO UNDERLINE A POINT RAISED BY KUSHAL LATER:

 

Can one Name Denote Two Species?-1

• For those who doubt that the word aśva could have

referred to both horses as well as onagers/wild asses:

• 1. a) the difference between horses, onagers and wild

asses was not so pronounced to the amateur eyes till

around 1000 years ago, around which time the horse

achieved its present size and distinctive characteristics

due to selective breeding and cross-breeding.

• b) There is no alternative word for horses and onagers

or other equids in Vedic (or even in PIE) till the domesticated West

Asian wild ass (gardabha, rāsabha) was introduced into

the Vedic world during the New Rigvedic period

through Central Asia.

• c) Even zoologists today classify them all as equus

species.

 

Can one Name Denote Two Species?-2

• 2. Even today an Indian would use one word for two

animals which, in actual zoological classification,

belong to two totally different families:

• a) A python and a boa would both be ajgar: they

belong to two different families (pythons, like birds, lay

eggs. Boas, like mammals, give birth directly).

• b) A cheetah (acinonyx jubata) and a leopard

(panthera pardus, closer to panthera leo, the lion, and

panthera tigris, the tiger) would both be called chittā.

• c) A deer (family cervidae) and an antelope (family

bovidae, like cattle, buffalos, bisons, goats and sheep)

would both be called hiraṇ/hariṇ.

• So there is nothing unusual in the horse and the

onager/wild ass originally having one name aśva.

117 comments:

  1. Sir what is your opinion about frawley paradox ?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Well, it is obvious: the idea of (a) an archeologically attested civilization so highly developed in every way (local development of carts and chariots, pottery and bead industries, planned cities with modern drainage system and street lighting, an independent alphabet, trade with places as far away as southern Europe (ivory), standard weights and measures, etc., etc.), but no religious, historical or cultural traditions surviving in records, and at the same time (b) a culture so meticulously recorded in memory for millenniums (the Vedic texts), but absolutely invisible in the archaeological record, both in the same geographical area and same time-frame, but with no connection with each other!!!
      Is this some kind of science fiction scenario where parallel universes or different dimensions exist in the same space?
      Obviously, the Harappan civilization and the PIE/Indo-Iranian/Vedic civilization are one and the same.

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    2. Vedic civilization is Purus and Anus. The Indus Valley is predominantly Yadu and Turvasu. The Vedic Culture is better explained by Ochre Colored Pottery and Painted Grey Ware which is contemporary to the Harrapan civilization. If for some reason Harapppan language is anything other than Vedic or Sanskritic, it won't be surprising as the Yadus and Turvasus are from a ifferent cultural sphere, they are from the non Veic south and their nature worshiping religion reflects that,

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    3. The Anus might be the BMAC.

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    4. Oh! that one is easy! (tongue in cheek!) - just like Sumerian / Babylonian and Egyptian civilizations have been superseded and left no religious record - and the current religious record is all semetic , so goes IVC!

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    5. no not so goes ivc sumerian,egyptian and babylonian have left record and lots of record of religious practice unlike dravidian languages.

      Delete
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      Delete
  2. I never understood the logic of using indo - European since linguistic familiarity is obvious between languages one way or other. For example, Korean language sounds tamil, but it doesn't warrant that Koreans are decadents of Tamils and vice - versa.
    It's wrong to use indo - European. It's a deliberate attempt to cement AIT.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Shri Talageri avare,

    I just want to point out a small convergence between the Rakhigarhi genetics paper from 2019 (Shinde & Narasimhan) and a dispute between Emeneau and HH Hock, the linguists. The convergence was missed totally by the geneticists and HH Hock. Shri Emeneau has long passed from this world.

    The Rgveda has retroflexion right through the Old and New books. Concepts, names, people, rivers - all of them exhibit retroflexion. In fact this quality alone convinced linguists that Rgveda could have been composed in India and India only.

    How did the retroflexion come about? There was a fascinating see-saw battle that occupied linguists for most of the 70s, 80s and 90s. There were two schools - the Convergence and the Subversion schools. The convergence school argued that the retroflexion in Sanskrit was a result of bi-directional exchange between Dravidian and IA groups of equal power and the whole process was achieved organically in an infinite amount of time. The subversion school argued that retroflexion was an outcome of a unidirectional exchange between unequal groups and it took place in a short amount of time. The scholars involved in these discussions were Hock, Emeneau, Thomason & Kaufman, Bloch and from an earlier century - Caldwell and Konow.

    If we try to figure out which South Asian Bronze Age genetic cline could have been the most fitting candidate for the composition of the Rgveda, it has to be the Indus Valley Cline - the Rakhigarhi woman plus the 11 outliers from Shahr-i-Sokta and Gonur. The magic ingredient is the Andamanese Hunter Gatherers (AHG) component - that must have provided Dravidian retroflexion from a deep past. This is the only cline that presents a fit to the model of the Convergence. The IVC cline was stable for almost 5000 years before the Mature Harappan. This is a very powerful intersectional proof for the fact that the oldest book of the Rgveda is very much at home with retroflexion.

    The other explanation is that the Steppes people came into India, mixed with IVC people and composed the Rgveda. This is not parsimonious - we would have seen a upward slope in retroflexion from the Old Books to the New Books.

    An equivalent physical science parallel is the cosmic background radiation signal that comes from the universe in all directions in equal strength!! Cosmologists figured out that this could only be from the Big Bang that happened so far back.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Namaste Talageri Ji, 🙏🏻

    I was wondering whether I could somehow get access to recording (if any) of this online session?

    I’d really love to listen to your arguments rather relying solely upon this written blog (as it’s complex here and there to understand).

    Thank you,

    Warm Regards,

    Pranav Dhir

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Go search youtube - Carvaka podcast and find Talageri ji’s video there.

      Delete
  5. @Talageri

    Has anyone addressed the spoked wheels argument besides the person who thought he was so clever by quoting a reference to fast motion?

    ReplyDelete
  6. Also what gods are Dravidian, it seems like both Shaivism and vaishnavism have origin in Vedic texts.

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  8. sir how will you explain the Uttarkuru problem...uttarkuru is situated in present day Balkh and was said to be the orignal home of Kurus now Kuru is a Puru tribe could this mean Puru as a whole also came from Balkh..a explanation would be appreciated..

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Which Vedic or post Vedic text says Uttara Kiru is the original homeland of the kurus. Based on the geographic descriptions of Ramayana and Mahabharata UttaraKuru is roughly krygikistan area.

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    2. We need to look at the brahmanas and aranyaka if they speak of any migrations. I swear there was a such text that mentions a tribe moving out of India.

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    3. yeah but Uttarakuru is decribed as people of Balkh in Satpatha Brahmana and even Ramayana and the the Dakshin Kuru are their descendents,

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    4. The Uttara Kuru (north east) and Uttara Madra (north west) are names for people to the north of Afghanistan, and I have pointed out that these are the names for the early proto-Tocharians and proto-Hittites respectively. The name Uttara Kuru is clearly connected to the ancient name of the Tocharians, Tokhru, containing: what Henning calls “the consonantal skeleton (dental + velar + r) and the old u-sonant [which] appears in every specimen of the name” (HENNING 1978:225). They occupy the very areas attested by the Tocharians.

      Which Brahmana says the Kurus are descended from the Uttara Kurus of the Balkh? The earliest text, the Rigveda, is already a Puru text centred in Haryana, and the Kurus are a post-Rigvedic branch of the Purus. How can the Kurus be descended from a people native to Balkh?

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    5. Exactly, I was asking for the specific reference of Uttara kuru's giving rise to the kurus. There is a text, I for got which, that talk about wither anus or kambojas moving out of India to the west, but scholars deliberatley translated as east.

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    7. Actually my bad the Brahmanas describe
      the Balkh or nothern region as UTTARKURU but why did it called it Dev Khestra and so did Mahabharat also Ramayan too mentions ancestor of Kuru from Bahl(Balkh) country..it would be nice of you to shed some ligth..

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    8. Distant lands or exotic lands are often given divine status. Northern lands, which is a direction associated with the gods, is also given a divine status. I still would like a reference in the texts of Balkh origin of the Kurus now

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    9. I dont know exactly from where Im somewhat of a begeinner in these topics..but theres a brief mention of Uttarkuru and also association with Kiru with Uttarkuru being their orignal homeland in WIKI under the heading UTTARKURU..this stuff confuses me a lot man


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    10. From experience, don't trust the wiki's as they get their information indirectly and is very distorted. Always try to track down the relevant and original source.

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    11. yeh that is a thing which I saw many times..WIKI is very left leaning abd try to show their perspective as the rigth and global one..this thing annoys me too.

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  9. I found that there were some Eastern
    branches of "Anavas" who established Anga, Vanga and other likewise kingdoms in the far East.

    If this so,How they have been described in the scriptures...???

    There are some tribes like Sodroi(Shudras),Kshudrakas etc. mentioned by Greeks.
    Were they Anavas too??

    Sir, Could you please share your views on this.??

    ReplyDelete
  10. Don't know about the horse. But the word chakra for wheel as well as the *PIE root kwel are both evidenced in tamizh root sarukku for slippage https://agarathi.com/word/%e0%ae%9a%e0%ae%b1%e0%af%81%e0%ae%95%e0%af%8d%e0%ae%95%e0%af%81 and kAl for wheel https://agarathi.com/word/%e0%ae%95%e0%ae%be%e0%ae%b2%e0%af%8d. sarkarai for Sugar (Shakkar) is also from the word for slippage which denotes the rolling of sugar molasses into balls of Jaggery. Dr Arasendiran (retired tamizh professor from Madras Christian College) in his nostratic tamizh videos discussed these two roots.

    *kwel is from kAl ( also meaning foot or quarter ) means the wheels of a charriot. ratha from *PIE rOTA is also evidenced in tamizh as uruTTu, uruL - natural sound for roundness as the mouth makes a roundish shape to pronounce this word.

    All words have meaning - ella sollum porULuDaittu - a unique claim made in tolkAppiyam - tamizh grammar is applicable only to tamizh. Other languages cannot point to a natural origin of words in many instances.

    kal - stone is still. kAl a roller with long vowel signifies movement. Just like nil is to be still, nIl is for water (which flows!)

    I made similar points in Dr Kalyanaraman blog: https://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.com/2021/06/cakra-wheel-see-tsarkhah-spinning-wheel.html?showComment=1624954414762

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The word sarukku for slippage is from natural sound made by a slipping object against ground. Only tamizh satisfies the requirement made by Noam Chomsky that the first language development needs to have a damn simple explanation - as it needs to be natural without any great intellect or memory!

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  11. The conjunction und in proto-German which is purportedly derived from *PIE root *en is related to 'um' conjunction in tamizh. The 'm' sound claimed to be denoted by the + (plus) symbol in Indus script.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The plus symbol of addition is expressed in tamizh language is expressed with a suffix as "um" appended to number names which is like 2 'and' 2 make 4.

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  12. It will be nice to explore in detail the Dravidian aspects of Hinduism.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The word dravidian is a false narrative. As a grammatical language family yes the southern region in spite of trade links was isolated by forests and Vindhyas , that is once Agriculture made people settled in one place. Tamizh evolved it's own grammatical structure. Yet there are scholars who say tolkAppiyam the tamizh grammar is a translation of Bharata's nATya Sastra, in the cultural commentary sections. As a culture also it evolved separately for millennia and shows distinctive features. There is also the theory that Samskrtam was fostered by tamizh people only from the South before it went to North! In terms of etymology there is a lot common and in many cases the words are better rooted in tamizh than in Samskrt.

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  14. In a presentation about aryan migration it is referenced that paaliyaar tribe in tamilnadu is purely asi and gond tribe in chathisgarh speaks a dravidian language gondi is the evidence of aryan migration so that some people are in north which is not related to vedic culture. Also kalash people are speakers of proto sanskrit and they follow proto vedic culture and their appearance is similar to europeans, is also an evidence of aryan migration through west to east.
    Lactose tolerance is greater in north Indians because of European genes because they also have high lactose tolerance, which is seen in the people who domesticate animals from long time.

    I think the presenter referenced tony josephs book and these details are from his book.
    Would like to know your comment on this.
    Hope you will reply.
    Thank you sir🙏🏻

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. tamizh is related to many older languages. The word KUR in Sumerian is proposed to mean mountain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziusudra And you can see the tamizh meaning of the word : https://agarathi.com/word/%e0%ae%95%e0%af%81%e0%ae%b1%e0%ae%b5%e0%ae%a9%e0%af%8d . Now that king ZiuSudra is interpreted by Ma So Victor a tamizh researcher as SEy SUdra - where Sey is child in tamizh. Sudra is a familiar word and sUththiran in tamizh can be interpreted as a person of work skills. thiran is ability , capacity, skill. aindiran is 5 siddhis (in earlier times there were 5) and there is a claim that the word Indra is rooted in tamizh. Now for the word sEy (pronounced like say(e) in English) , it is Ses in Anatolian, Egyptian ( King Ramses) comes to samskRt as siShu.

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    2. And Moses!!! The author of ten commandments too! :) https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=moses =>> Hear! , Hear! it is of unknown origin in Hebrew!! <<"from Hebrew Mosheh, which is of unknown origin">> And how it is pronounced?? with eh ending. That is sEy(e) from tamizh! :) :)

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    3. And how do we explain this? https://www.etymonline.com/word/*pele which is closer to "pala" of tamizh : https://agarathi.com/word/%e0%ae%aa%e0%ae%b2 than to purvi or bahula of samskrt??

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    4. Anthropological root of "pala" is "pal" which is a prefix for plurality ( see the etyms for : https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=plural and by further down ref. https://www.etymonline.com/word/plus). Now "pal" also mean teeth in tamizh and it is obvious connection to human body is evident in "teeth are one of the organs that is many in nature". Which ever language has the word root in itself is the oldest and the root language for others. ( a proposition made by Ma. So. Victor)!

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  15. @Shri Talageri
    Witzel claims that Vedic poetesses were men masquerading as women. Do you also think it is true? https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/9886300/FemaleRsis-UNICODE%20copy.pdf

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  16. Sir were Anus Indo Aryan and Vedic? pls shed ligth on this

    ReplyDelete
  17. Talageri, please adress the Baudayana sutras mentioning a migration amavasu to the west and his people being parsus and arattas.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Talageri, there is reference to spokes in Family boook, II.39.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Book 2 is temporally closer to 5, 1 and 8 than it is to 6, 7, 3 and 4. It is quite some time after Sudās and the dāśarājña. The presence of spokes (is contested) does not refute Talageri's sir's larger findings about absence of spokes in earlier RV.

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    2. There is no reference to spokes in II.39. I don't know which word you choose to interpret as meaning "spoke": the Rigvedic word for "spoke" is ara.

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    3. II. 39 "Bear us across the rivers like two vessels, save us as ye were yokes, naves, spokes and fellies.
      Be like two dogs that injure not our bodies; preserve us, like two crutches, that we fall not."

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    4. Wait, I checked the Sanskrit, the word Griffith likely used to mean spokes was upadhi. The context of the verse was naming parts of a wheel, but upadhi means a peculiarity or a limit.

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  19. Sir in your book you have said
    "The origins of the Kurgan culture have beentraced as far east as Turkmenistan in 4500 BCE"
    What are all the evidences that supports this view?
    Can you please share me any evidence regarding this?

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  21. @Shri Talageri
    A paper in Nature claims that Linguistic, archaeological, and genetic analysis shows IVC inhabitants spoke Dravidian https://www.nature.com/articles/s41599-021-00868-w#MOESM1.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Shri Talageri Avare

    Bahata Ansumali Mukhopadhyay has published a paper in Nature showing the relationship between the Dravidian root word for Elephant and its cognates in ancient Mesopotamia, Sumeria and Iran.

    Ms. Bahata is an exceptional researcher who has published other papers on the logographic, non-rebus nature of the IVC script system.

    I read her latest Nature paper (open access). The depth and collection of material is deep and sincere. I was instantly reminded of your excellent blog on ibha, elephants and PIE lexicon. Both of you have reached opposite conclusions in your own deep researches.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41599-021-00868-w

    I humbly request you to provide your views on this latest development.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. If you have read my article on "The Elephant and the PIE Homeland", you must have read that I have pointed out about the word pilu. I do not know if it it is based on the Sanskrit root "pil" or the Dravidian word "pal", but it makes no difference. In any case, the word is not found in the Vedic literature at all and is found in the subsequent Classical Sanskrit vocabulary which does contain many important words (neer, meen, heramba, etc.) of Southern Dravidian origin. If it was the Dravidian Harappan word for elephant why was it not borrowed by the Vedic people who are alleged to have intruded on the Harappan territory?

      The word is found only after 2000 BCE even in West Asia, after the main period of the New Rigveda and the Mature Harappan period, while the word rbha/lbha (from the root rabh/labh, "to grab or grasp", and hence with the same etymological sense as the word hastin) is found in the IE languages (Hittite lahpa, Vedic ibha, Greek erepa/elephas, Latin ebur with a metathesis of erbu, etc.) from a PIE origin before 3000 BCE.

      In my elephant article, I pointed out:

      "There is a common West Asian word for "elephant", though: "Arabic fīl 'elephant' is related to its counterparts in other Semitic languages: Syrian pīlā, Postbiblical Hebrew pīl, Akkadian (Old Babylonian, Middle Assyrian) pīru(m), pīlu id." (BLAŽEK 2004:17). In fact, this word is also found in various Iranian languages: Old Persian pīru-, Middle and New Persian pīl, Sogdian pyδ, Khwarezmian pyz. It is also found in the later Sanskrit lexicon as pīlu, and in Armenian as p'igh. In fact, incredibly, it is even found in Old Norse and Icelandic as fill."
      "The word ibha- was already acquiring an archaic status, and, in the areas of present day Pakistan and Afghanistan, a new word pīru/pīlu (from the root pīl-, "to obstruct", no. 521 in Panini's Dhātupāṭha) came into use particularly among the proto-Iranian sections of the area (the word is found only as one of the words for the "elephant", pīlu, in Sanskrit lexicons and in post-Vedic Sanskrit texts), and the word survives in most of these Iranian languages: Old Persian pīru-, Middle and New Persian pīl, Sogdian pyδ, Khwarezmian pyz, as well as in Armenian p'igh. Along with the Indian elephant, the word travelled into Mesopotamia: Akkadian (Old Babylonian, Middle Assyrian) pīru (m), pīlu (n). It replaced the older Sumerian word am-si with bilam. It also replaced the older (Biblical) Hebrew abb with pīl. It became fīl in Arabic. The Old Norse/Icelandic word fill is rather difficult: it is explained as a word which may have been borrowed by the Vikings (from Arabs?) during the course of their travels, but that is a bit far-fetched, and it could equally well be one more IE survival, from a period of time when the earlier name of the elephant was transferred to the Bactrian camel."

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    2. Thank you Sir for your thoughts!

      I have been as much muddled by the new paper. One one hand, it is rather expansive and meticuluous - but I could not rationalize the IVC as a mono-lingual area speaking only Dravidian. The researcher, Ms. Bahata, puts out a rider that the IVC could equally be multi-lingual. One of her other papers argues for continuity between IVC symbols and metrological words in Sanskrit such as dron, karshapana etc.

      I have thought about another explanation.

      There were two sources of ivory and elephants in the ancient world. One was South India. The other was the Gangetic Plains beginning at the Lower Himalayas in Nepal and stretching till Assam. These two areas, easily traversable today - might have been totally separate landmasses separated by the Vindhyas.

      Hence the two distinct words for elephant in Ancient Indian lexicon - ibha and pilu. This is only a surmise.

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  24. Dear Talageri Ji,
    If you see this message ..I hope you respond or atleast think about it ..
    As You say Bhrigus/The Anu are treated interchangeably..can it be that Bhrigus are represented by the Unicorn..This is so because one of the Ancestress of Bhrigus..the wife of Bhargava Shukra was The Manasi Kanya "Go" or "Ekashringa" which is simply the "One Horned One" or Unicorn..
    Shukra has been associated in almost all Hindu Traditions as the Priest of Asurs or rather The Anu people/Tribe as you have shown. Pretty possible that Bhrigus after Shukra were represented by the motif of Ekashringa/Unicorn

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  25. Talageri, where does the geolgocial dating of the Gaggar Hakra drying up fit with in the dating of the Rigv Veda, look at research since 2018-2021. I believe the Sarswati of the Rig Veda, despite being called, mighty, is a monsson fed river, hence the name "having lakes".

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  26. What is your opinion on scholars translating samudra as a gathering of waters or as in a lake. Some scholars say MIRA originally meant lake.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This is addressed in detail here:
      https://talageri.blogspot.com/2020/07/the-full-out-of-india-case-in-short.html

      Delete
  27. I left two comments and questions for you on your older blog entry. I realized I responded to the wrong entry. So I am reposting them here to your latest entry:

    I am really impressed by your work Mr Shrikant. Of all recent Indian scholars, you are the one that fits my wavelength the most. Before your work I use to think the Rig Veda is the oldest text of India and the Puranas came later. Now, I realize it is the Puranas that contain the most ancient history of India and the Rig Veda is only the text of the Bharata Purus, a far later Puru dynasty. Then it becomes clear that Vedic Sanskrit of the Rig Veda cannot be the language of PIE. It has to be pre-Vedic Sanskrit.

    But I am still not understanding why PIE cannot just be a more archaic form of Vedic Sanskrit itself? The PIE that Western scholars have constructed and the order in which the 12 families branched off: Anatolian, Tochariayn, then German, Italic, Celtic, Balto-Slavic, then Greek, Armenian, Albanian and then Iranian and finally the last one left is Indo-Aryan. How can we be sure this is the right order? I really need to see you explain this sir. The original purpose of this reconstruction exercise by Western linguists was to show that Vedic Sanskrit literally was the youngest one of them all, and that is why dated it to 1500BCE and made it as the last one arriving into India. If we take 4000BCE as the starting point for them branching off, we will be left with the same scenario that Vedic Sanskrit is the youngest. This contradicts your date of 3000BCE or earlier for Rig Veda which would simply be too early for Vedic Sanskrit to have diverged away from 12 others.

    But we already have evidence it is not the youngest. Like you have pointed yourself the Mittanis and Avesta language is younger than Vedic Sanskrit -- they have turned the S sounds into H, like Sindhu into Hindu. And this isogloss is shared with Greek. This means that Avesta and Greek are definitely younger than Vedic Sanskrit. Does it not?

    In cont of my earlier comment. I have spoken to Linguists regarding your theory and their biggest argument against you is if reconstructed PIE which is very distant phonologically from Vedic Sanskrit and all Sanskrtic language - originated in India in 4000BCE - then why is there no trace of any PIE like language in India? PIE as it has currently been reconstructed sounds more like a Germanic language and the highest diversity of IE languages that have the PIE features are all found there. How can PIE be in India then in 4000BCE? You need to respond to this argument sir, because they consider this a fatal problem with your theory.

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    1. The Mitanni have not turned the s into h, only the Iranians. Actually also Sinhalese (alternating s with h) and also some western Indo-Aryan languages like Gujarati (again partially and as alternate sounds), since Sinhalese originated in the noerthwest and some of the Greek-Iranian isoglosses rubbed off on neighboring Indo-Aryan speech forms.

      I will be giving a talk on Kushal Mehra's Carvaka youtube channel most probably in two or three parts on the Linguistic Evidence for the OIT. The first part will probably be on 25/8/2021, where I will be dealing with the isoglosses.

      Since all the 12 branches had already differentiated before 3500 BCE (pre-Rigvedic period) in the Northwest of India itself, there is no reason for the Vedic language to be closest to the PIE language. As for the Germanic languages, Sanskrit has preserved all four sets of occlusive consonants in the original form, while Greek has preserved two and Germanic none!

      And I really do not need to prove anything to AIT scholars, it is time for them to disprove me or to prove things to me.

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    2. For me you are not a linguist but a Philologist - with regard to the studying and deciphering of texts. Nicholas Kazanas is linquist and Aleksandr A . Semenenko is a archeologist - you three I refer to as Trimunis - Three Muni - just like in Sanskrit Grammar we have Panini, Katyayana and Patanjali so to in the field of the Aryan debate any conflicts or contradictions that arises must be resolved my consulting the works of all three of your works.

      In the light of the above, your statement: "there is no reason for the Vedic language to be closest to the PIE language" is nullified when we consider the following statement by Prof Kazanas:

      "In addition, the cumulative evidences from all these different areas (and others) show that the Indoaryans are indigenous to India from at least the 7th millennium BCE, that Vedic is much older than any other IE language and closest to the ProtoIndo-European mother tongue and that all past and current IE studies should be scratched and a fresh start be made, if it is still thought to be necessary"

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    3. I agree that this has been to be a multi disciplinary approach. I think Indian scholars are on the right track with linguists, historians and archaeologists working together on the AIT debate, but so far they are talking cross purposes. Linguists(Talageri) are saying one thing, historians(such Vedveer Arya) and archaeologists(B.B. Lal) are saying another. The same is not true for Western scholars, they all agree on AIT/AMT archaeologists, historians, geneticists all build a neat picture with a narrative of AIT presupposed. So neat, it is practically a fact.

      Indian scholars need consensus among each other. And I suggest start with the first an agreed chronology of India. It simply cant be done if one scholar is saying 5000BCE for Mahabharata, another 3100BCE, another 1500BCE and yet another 1000BCE. It jut gives the overall picture Indian scholars are confused.

      What I don't understand is why do we need to invent a new chronology and new dates, when we already have the established Puranic chronology of India. The 3100BCE date is the date we find our texts, it is the date that we find in inscriptions, it is the date that we use for Kaliyuga calendar and it is the date that we recorded in our astronomical tables(as referenced by Playfair et al) I can understand why Western scholars reject this date because it does not fit with AIT, but why would OIT folks reject this date? We then become guilty of the same chauvinism against our own ancient historiographers, like Western scholars were -- calling out history myth, saying we got all the dates wrong because we were ahistorical people.

      We can make OIT and Indian history work together if only we push the Vedas back to 4000-6000BCE and push further back the start of IE migrations.

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    4. @Talageri, apologies I end up replying to your post in a new reply(I am not too familiar with Blogspot layout yet) Please see below for why the main arguments against your theory that demand your attention and a rebuttal.

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  28. Apologies I know Mittani does not have the S to H change, I meant just Avestan. I should have been more clear.

    I look forward to your talks on the Linguistics evidence for OIT. Although I understand your sentiment regarding them proving AIT to you and you not proving OIT to them, we need to be honest and realistic here about the power relationship here. They are the established orthodoxy on this matter not just in the West, but in the entire world and every university in the world, including in India. Most linguistics are not familiar with your works, and those are have summarily rejected it(Witzel et al) and because this rejection comes from top of the Western priestly class, the others just reject you without even reading your work. I was outcasted from one linguistic discussion for just mentioning your name and labelled Hindutva activist. This means the onus is on you to make the effort to overturn the orthodoxy, otherwise they will just continue to stonewall you and pretend you do not exist, as they have been doing now for over 20 years. But this is consistent with our approach too, the "purva paksha" whatever it is, needs to be first falsified before we can establish the new one. Like Shankara literary had to go after the Buddhists and challenge them in their own bastions. You will also need to challenge them in their own bastions.

    We can't let this stone walling of you continue. But then you will also need to engage their best arguments against your theory. I would like to make a suggestion you cover these arguments against OIT in your Talks with Kushal Mehra when you discuss the linguistic evidence for OIT. I will cite them in my next post.

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  29. 1. Retroflex constants which exist all in nearly all Indian languages and gives it the distinct Indian flavor that Indian languages are known for outside, including Dravidian, are rarely found in IE languages and absent in PIE. If India was the homeland characterized linguistically as being retro flex territory, then why doesn't PIE have them and nearly all IE languages don't have them.

    Their explanation is that Vedic Sanskrit has retro flex consonants because of substrate influence from Dravidian it acquired after entering India, and hence it proves that it only acquired these when Vedic Sanskrit arrived into India and did not have them before

    2. Linguistic centre of gravity. They argue the homeland is never too far from the center of most diversity of languages that retain more of the archaic features of the original. In terms of phonology, most of the Western European languages have a phonology that sounds closest to PIE. The main isogloss cited here is Centum features. The first languages to break off from PIE were all Centum languages and it underwent Satamiation far later. Most of the Centum languages are found in Western Europe and barely a trace in the Indian subcontinent, except for substrate influence in one language from an older extinct language.

    3. The Laryngeal theory. PIE had Larygeals in replacement of most of the ablauting "a, e and o" sounds in IE and only Hittie has retained them, but the Western Europe languages all retain a colouring of them. Indo-Iranian languages, however, have merged h1, h2 and h3 sounds into just [h] and they are found more prevalent in Avestan and Mittani and less in Vedic Sanskrit. Vedic Sansrit, on the other hand, has merged the ablauting a, o and e into just a single phoneme [a] and there is no trace of laryngeal in any Indian language(seemingly). Therefore, they argue, this proves that PIE originated outside of India, and all the early languages that branched off retained the laryngeal and Vedic Sanskrit that had went into India had lost them and innovated the [a] .

    4. According to the linguistic methods both Mittani Sanskrit and Avestan are actually an older than-Rig Vedic sanskrit and hence pre-Rig Vedic e.g. Mittani and Avestan both have the original Z sounds in Proto Indo-Iranian(PLL) and Vedic Sanskit has lost them. e.g, PII.*niždás, Avestan.*nižda, Vdskt.nīḷá/nīḍá

    Also where there are original "hs" in PLL, it is retained in Avestan but turned into an "s" in Vedic Sanskrit e.g PLL.*Hsúškas, Avestan.huška, Vskt.śúṣka.

    This seems to contradict your chronology of Avesta and Mittani being post-Vedic and branching ouut from the language of the later Rig Veda new books. It suggests the direction is the other way around and it suggests the movement into India from where Avestan split off. This also adds weight to Witzel's argument on Sarasvati being originally "Harahwati"(sp?), that got transferred to the Indian river and became Sarasvati.

    Mittani seems to be a bigger problem for you because it is an Indo-Aryan language that you claim is late Vedic. If Mittani is post-Rig Veda, then you need to explain how Mittanis got the Z sounds and how it can be derived from Vedic Sanskrit.

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  30. Please do not mistake me just citing their arguments for beliefs in them or arguing against your theory.(I am OIT myself) I am merely pointing out based on my discussion with linguists what are the primary arguments and evidence against your theory. We need an Indian answer -- moor-tor-jawab for all these objections they raise which they consider fatal to your theory.

    I am not a linguist myself, my background is Philosophy, like you I also self-teaching myself this, what seems to be mainly an Western intellectual activity inseparably linked to their identity. I remain very skeptical of their comparative method. As a student of Philosophy, though I don't know linguists, I some things about epistemology and etymologically I find their method dubious.I think the method is already rigged to show India cannot be the homeland because it begins with a set of presuppositions or hidden premise that presuppose AIT. In fact, that is exactly what the forefathers of this method said themselves -- to prove Vedic Sanskrit/India is not the homeland was the main point of the exercise. It seems to me they have just made up a lot of hypothetical languages PIE, PLL etc(even Avestan is mostly reconstructed) and they have constructed as such that it all fits neatly together with Aryan invasion theory -- which demands Vedic Sanskrit to be the youngest and newest language arriving into North West India by 1500BCE. Of course then, their method is showing Mittani and Avestan as being older and closer to PLL, and PLL in turn closer to PIE.

    The problem is you are using their method yourself(other OIT scholars reject it) so now you need to explain using the logic of their own method how you can derive Mittani Sanskrit and/or Avestan from Vedic Sanskrit if they are indeed post-Vedic.

    You also need to explain why the isoglosses that all Indian languages share are absent in Western European languages(re: retroflexes, centum/satam etc)

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    1. Correction *PLL should be PII(Proto Indo Iranian)

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    2. Please read the works of Prof Nicholas Kazanas, he is a linquist, all the points that you have raised have been already dealt with by Prof Kazanas. Shrikant ji is a Philologis so he lacks the nuances of this topic ( linquistic part )

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    3. I am only somewhat familiar with Prof Nicholas Kazanas. I will read up more on him as you recommend him. I suspect you are right that Mr Talageri is not a linguist but a philologist, the difference being a linguist is somebody trained in a scientific discipline that analyses sound, sound laws and sound change, whereas a philologist examines the words in a text. Arguably, historical linguistics is considered modern philology

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    4. I have read many of his articles now Raghavar thanks. I am surprised how much in agreement he is with my own conclusions re Rig Veda is pre Harrapan and the invalidity of the methods of PIE.

      I am sure Shrikant ji is familiar with his works and should adjust his understanding accordingly in light of his work. As I have said below and hopefully he responds to me, his 3000BCE date for Rig Veda is impossible. It is impossible both on linguistic and archaeological grounds.

      He also needs to be skeptical of the Western linguistic comparative method and their conclusions on which order PIE broke of. He has uncritically accepted Hittie as the first one, but the only reason Western linguists have accepted Hittie as older is because it has laryngeals that Saussere predicted and it is needed to explain the irregularity of a,e and o sounds which they could not explain. However, is it a coincidence that Hittie is the only IE language that has them and it happens to be in the Semite zone which is laryngeal territory. It is more easy to explain as a shared isogloss with Semite languages or substrate influence than to insist PIE had it.

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  31. Talageri ji, have you read the recent article related to ancient Dravidian language link with Indus Valley civilisation. It claims that proto-dravidian word for elephanat was prevalent in IVC.

    https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/indus-valley-civilisation-script-ancient-dravidian-language-link-7461402/

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41599-021-00868-w

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    1. He's literally addressed this in same thread above. And have you watched his video yesterday at Kushal Mehra? If you do your research, you'll see his OIT case is the definition of watertight.

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    2. OK, I haven't read that thread.

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  32. I watched the first part of your talk Mr Shrikant Ji. I am happy you dealt with 2 of 3 of the objections by AIT camp I brought up. I am not sure if you had already planned to, but either way I am glad you tackled these and I am satisfied with your responses. Except, I would like to add on the Linguistic Center of Gravity argument, their argument doesn't just say exactly the geographic center, it says the center of diversity where the more archaic languages are. So you haven't still fully neutralized this argument.

    I am a bit disappointed you did not deal with the last argument which is actually the most fatal to your theory. You claim that Avestan and Mittani are younger than Vedic Sansnkrit and show that they were in vogue during the New books of the Rig Veda, but according to Western linguistic methods which you trust both Avestan and Mittani are way older and emerge from Proto-Indo-Iranian which had the Z sounds, which Avestan and Mittani preserve and Vedic Sanskrit has lost. Now the onus lies on you to prove using the same Western linguistic method how you can derive them from Vedic Sanskrit. I have already asked linguists and they say it is impossible.

    Please deal with this objection because it is only intellectually honest to do so as its the most fatal one against you.

    I also want to comment please refrain from giving dates. Your current scenario of 4000BCE for start of migrations and 3000BCE is impossible. It is impossible for language to under so many changes s fast to go from PIE to Vedic Sanskrit. It would take more than 1000 years for 12 language families to come out of PIE. Just look at Sanskrit itself and how much it changed from 2000BCE to 1000BCE, not massively enough for it to become a new language.

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    1. The "da" in the Yajurveda has to be pronounced as "zha" in the corresponding passages in the Samaveda. In the Rgveda also in some places the "da" has to be similarly pronounced. The very first word in the first sukta of the Rigveda, "Agnimile", has to be pronounced almost as "Agnimizhe" - not a full "zhe" for "le", but almost.

      From https://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part6/chap6.htm

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    2. Oh that's easy, Avestan is a recently fabricated artificial language made up by a French Men Zan Pierron? Whom attended Zoroastrian rituals in India but decided that they spoke a SEPERATE language but later admitted that the language of the Avesta's was just a lesser Pahlavi dialect of the SANSKRITIC language.

      Those "linguists" you talked to were ignorant frauds, with zero clue about the history of western faux scholars like this French man, and perpetuate this false idea or con of an PIE language existing which there is no evidence of.

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    3. Mohan, Z is a separate phoneme in Avestan and not a case of an ablaut of another sound.

      Xas, I agree with you completely. Avestan doesn't sound like another language, it sounds like a dialect of Sanskrit. Many scholars have pointed this out, but the linguist consensus view is that Avestan is in fact a sister language and both Vedic Sanskrit and Avestan branch out of Proto-Indo Iranian.

      This is the kind of pseudoscientific nonsense you find in linguistics. They invent new languages on an ad-hoc basis, proto this, proto that and then come up with laws to derive how an existing language has derived from a made up proto language.
      The problem with Talageriji accepts Western linguistics. In that case he has the burden now to prove how to get Avestan from Vedic Sanskrit.

      By the way I read an article on Avestan being reconstructed to. However, I am confused is it too reconstructed, or isn't some of it based on older Yasnas(chants) of the Zend Avesta?

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    4. "Talageriji accepts western linguistics" is the kind of statement that only someone who has not really read my books and blogs will make. There is no "western linguistics": there is only "linguistics", and I accept linguistics. There are so many presumptoions made by western linguists, but they can be proved wrong on the basis of linguistics itself. There is no "burden" on me to show "how to get Avestan from Vedic Sanskrit". Avestan does not come from Vedic Sanskrit, it is a separate branch, Iranian (an Anu branch) and Vedic Sanskrit is a separate branch, Indo-Aryan (Puru). I have repeatedly shown in my writings that Avestan (and Iranian as a whole) share isoglosses with other Anu branches (Greek and Armenian) not found in Vedic Sanskrit, like the conversion of s to h in similar situations, the conversion of t+t to st (Vedic retains the tt), etc.

      The close correspondences between Indo-Aryan and Iranian are because (like Baltic and Slavic branches to each other) they remained close to each other even after all the other branches had separated from them. And these common developments took place in the New Rigvedic Period. While we have the earlier Indo-Aryan language (in the Old Rigveda), we don't have any record of the Iranian language of that period because the Avesta (in its beginnings) is contemporaneous to the New Rigveda, and there is no record of the pre-Avestan Iranian language.

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    5. Thank you for responding and trying to enlighten me. I am understanding your position better but it has has created more doubts. First of all, though you say it is not Western linguistics it is Linguistics, but either you don't know or you are glossing over the expressed fact that Historical linguistics was created to disprove Old Indian/Vedic Sanskrit was PIE and by extension India was the homeland. It literally say it in the opening preamble of the very first reconstruction they did. This is why OIT is never taken seriously by linguists because the whole exercise was created by Linguists to show India is definitely not the homeland. Hence why I call it "Western linguistics" It is a Western field primarily and you know this because your work is rejected wholesale by the entire linguistics community, including in India. If what you are saying is objective and scientific you should be able to prove it using their methods, then why are all saying you don't know linguistics and say you are using it wrongly? It is not me you need to convince, but these Linguistics West or East.

      On Avestan. I did figure that considering that you accept historical linguistics that Avestan was a language that had branched out earlier and that the first Avestan text the Zend Avesta was written far later. Now my question if Avestan as a language is pre-Rig Vedic who practiced a form of Vedic religion too that they developed when they both spoke Indo-Iranian, then why would they wait thousands of years after to compile their own books in their own language? Are you not begging the question here?

      Also if Proto-Indo-Iranian was spoken jointly by Indians and Iranians at some point where is the evidence of any proto-Iranian words anywhere in an Indian languages or in any Iranian languages or any languages for that matter?

      Finally, you did not answer my objection still Western linguists using the methods of Linguistics say that Mittani Sanskrit which preserves the Z sound is older than Vedic Sanksrit then how can you say Mittani is late Vedic Sanskrit? In this case they are both Indo-Aryan language families so one is going to be older and one is going to be younger and your theory says Mittani is definitely younger does it not? Then can you use linguistics to derive Mittani from Vedic Sanskrit?

      Finally, please clarify when PIE was being spoken in India and how long ago before Vedic Sanskrit and why don't we find any PIE language in India or find any trace of any European languages in India with their characteristic kwh, kw, gwh an gwh and gw sounds.

      And if you are indeed using just using linguistics and thus think PIE and the sequence of languages(Hittie, Tochariyan... with Vedic Sanskrit as the very last one) then why does another OIT theorist Padmashree Prof Nicholas Kazanaz who is a trained linguist and has been teaching it for decades reject PIE and says Vedic Sanskrit is far older than any IE language including Hittie and places it pre Harappan using linguistic analysis. How could you both be using the same method of so-called scientific objective linguistics and arrive at such divergent conclusions?

      Can you deal with these strong arguments against your theory either here on or in your next video. It is better you hear criticism from anther OIT guy than an AIT guy.

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    6. *correction Proto-Iranian should be Proto-Indo-Iranian.

      Forgive me for not readily accepting a hypothetical made up language that seems to have no left trace of its existence anywhere.

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    7. Just to clarify I have read your books Rig Veda and Avesta: The final evidence and your essays.

      I am struggling to comprehend the anachronism in your claims. Either I am not understanding what you are saying or you have a blind spot and not seeing your error.

      You say Avestan is a sister language to Vedic Sanskrit and not a dialect of it and they both broke off from Proto-Indo-Iranian. Ok, but do you not see the obvious problem here the language that you call Avestan is what the the older hymns of the Zend Avesta is composed in and you say that this is during the time of late Vedic Sanskrit. This means Vedic Sanskrit is older than Avestan of the Zend Avesta. But linguistics says Avestan of the Zend Avesta is older than Rig Veda. Right?

      The same fault applies to Mittani Sanskrit. Linguistics says it is older than Vedic Sanskrit. But you say it is during the times of late Vedic Sanskrit.

      Can you explain this and do you realize how fatal this is to your theory if you can't explain this.

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    8. You are clearly a conspiracy theorist if you claim as a "fact that Historical linguistics was created to disprove Old Indian/Vedic Sanskrit was PIE and by extension India was the homeland." I cannot give any rational answer to such an attitude.

      It is clear that you not only have not read my books and blogs but you are also not reading my replies to your comments:

      I am sorry I cannot and will not accept the defeatist mentality of people who want to lose the war by sticking to fond ideas of Vedic Sanskrit being the oldest language. And I do not relish discussing linguistics with them any more than I would want to discuss religion with Zakir Naik or some Bible fundamentalist.

      I have always rejected the idea of an "Indo-Iranian" branch, and in my above reply I wrote: "Avestan does not come from Vedic Sanskrit, it is a separate branch, Iranian (an Anu branch) and Vedic Sanskrit is a separate branch, Indo-Aryan (Puru). I have repeatedly shown in my writings that Avestan (and Iranian as a whole) share isoglosses with other Anu branches (Greek and Armenian) not found in Vedic Sanskrit, like the conversion of s to h in similar situations, the conversion of t+t to st (Vedic retains the tt), etc."

      In spite of that you are making all kinds of nonsensical statements and accusing me of writing exactly the opposite of what I have written. It is fatiguing even to read let alone to reply.

      "But linguistics says Avestan of the Zend Avesta is older than Rig Veda. Right?"
      What do you think is the purpose of all my Vedic-Mitanni-Avestan data showing Avestan to be contemporaneous to late New Rigvedic?

      "Forgive me for not readily accepting a hypothetical made up language that seems to have no left trace of its existence anywhere."
      I forgive you, but will not waste any more of my time or yours.

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    9. You seem to be unnecessarily polemical. I have noted you are like this with everybody AIT or OIT. Perhaps because you don't have any formal academic training, but there is a certain etiquette that needs to be observed when responding to criticism or you will literally be ignored and discredited as you have been so far anyway. I am not criticizing all your work. I have in fact highly praised your analysis of the Rig Veda and Avesta and respectfully addressed you as ji many times, but the tone of how you have responded to polite questions seeking clarification on your ideas and asking you to critical problems with your theory(which was for your own benefit so you iron out the shortcoming in your theory) has lessened that now.

      You call me a conspiracy theorist and even compare me to a religious fundamentalist for being skeptical of PIE, but this goes to show how out of touch with your audience you are. This is a common OIT objection against PIE and linguistics, loads of people share this. Ironically, Prof Padmashree Kaznaz who unlike you has formally studied and taught linguistics, is the receiver of the highest honor of India and rejects PIE too. Is he a conspiracy theorist and religious fundamentalist too? Do you attack and name call literally everybody that has a criticism of you and are you surprised then why you are being stone walled by the people who matter? I told you that in the very reconstruction of PIE it says in the opening preamble itself that one of the purposes is to disprove Old Indian/Vedic Sanskrit is not PIE, and in that time language = geography, so it was indeed to disprove that India was the homeland(the main theory favored at the time by European scholars)

      Here is Schleicher's explanation of why he offered reconstructed forms:

      In the present work an attempt is made to set forth the inferred Indo-European original language side by side with its really existent derived languages. Besides the advantages offered by such a plan, in setting immediately before the eyes of the student the final results of the investigation in a more concrete form, and thereby rendering easier his insight into the nature of particular Indo-European languages, there is, I think, another of no less importance gained by it, namely that it shows the baselessness of the assumption that the non-Indian Indo-European languages were derived from Old-Indian (Sanskrit).

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    10. So don't be naive and think historical linguistics is some objective science that everybody can use and independently come to the same results. No science begins with an expressed purpose to reject a certain ethnicity or people. The whole exercise of Historical Linguistics is to do just that and pointing this out does not make me a conspiracy theorist, but it certainly makes you look naive an OIT theorist who has been stone walled for 20+ years by the very field you are religiously defending here and attacking your own camp for.

      You have also just proven that you don't follow Linguistics yourself. You say there was no Proto-Indo-Iranian, but linguistics says there is and it is the source of both Indo Aryan and Iranian. You say Avestan and Mittani are younger than Vedic Sanskrit, but linguistics say they are older. So excuse my french - but wtf - you ain't following their linguistics yourself. No wonder your critics both in the AIT and OIT camp say you don't know linguistics. Like one of your regular followers and fans said earlier Raghavar Voltore and who actually pointed me to Kanzaz as the real linguist and declared you were not a linguist but a philologist. I didn't fully understand what he meant at the time, but now I do.

      Look, you have done some brilliant philological work in analyzing the names in the Rig Veda and ascertaining its internal chronology for which Indian scholars praise you. Even your work on linguistic isoglosses is excellent I think. However, don't overstep your work. Just like an archaeologist should refrain from passing comments on genetics, you should refrain on commenting on both linguistics and archaeologists and leave it to the real linguists in the OIT camp. I am a newcomer to linguistics, but even I can tell you don't know the field you claim to know and don't use their methods consistently. I have spoken to expert linguists, some of them you have already interacted with and they all said you don't know linguistics either. Stick to what you know and do best and stop being so antagonistic to literally everybody that doesn't completely agree with what you are saying. Om Shanti.

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    13. The issue can be resolved if we consider that the Rig Veda was composed in Proto Indo Aryan in which later became Vedic Sanskrit and partially the Iranians began to speak Proto Iranian which stemmed from Proto Indo Aryan. For example the rig Vedic names with medha originally could have been chanted as mazda.

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    14. This is not allowed by the comparative method unfortunately. They say Indo-Aryan is a separate branch and Avestan did not come from it. However, Mittani did, but Mittani is an early Indo-Aryan because it has the Z sounds for example and by the time Rig Veda was composed the Z sound had changed. Then it literally becomes impossible based on Talagari's holy science of linguistics for Mittani to be late Rig Vedic.

      He is not going to admit it. But this is fatal to his theory. Every linguist in the world who knows linguistics know it. Witzel has already challenged him that Mittani is older than Rig Veda.

      But what Talageri does not realize I am not arguing on the favor of AIT and definitely not Witzel, I am just showing him why this method is nonsense. Of course Medha could have become Mazda in Iran and Near East, because they have that sound Z in that area. Of course Hittite had h1,h2 and h3 sounds because they are common in Semitic languages. You see its obvious how we can explain why the pronunciation changed as it did. You just cant deriving it using the Holy science of linguistics. Then I say, if your method is giving you such counter-factual results, discard the method not the results.

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    15. Perhaps Rig Veda was composed in the ancestral language between Avestan and Sanskrit. We have to know what the iriginal language the Rig Veda is written in. Some chants of the Rig Veda inolve pronouncing "d" as a retroflex "l". Words can stay constant but the langauage pronounciation can change. For example Shakespear pronounced his vowels differently, we know this because some words were supposed rhyme but aren't now, but the texts we have are still with us word for word, its that we pronounce them differently.

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    16. There is no evidence or any reason to suppose there was a Rig Veda other than the one that we know. We know it was composed by the Bharata clan of the Pururs far later towards the end of the Treta Yuga. The Purus, however, go far back but how far back is not immediately apparent because the only information we have for it is the Puranic lists of kings which gets confusing for the Treta Yuga as it becomes more mythological like kings who rule over thousands of years etc. However, it does give an indication that Rig Veda is not the most ancient document of the Indian people and there was a pre Rig Veda, so naturally this means there was a pre Rig Vedic Sanskrit and that maybe PIE, BUT this does not mean is the PIE that Western linguists have reconstructed(just look at it, its all guess work and based on ad-hoc postulations).

      The biggest flaw in Talageri's analysis, as excellent as it is in some aspects, is to date Rig Veda to Harrapan times. I am really surprised he would make such an oversight and disregard the work of other Indian scholars like Kazanz which clearly show it is pre Harrapan. The Rig Veda does not have any words that common of the material culture of the Harrapan like writing, seals, bricks, cities(the world pur is not a city as Kaznaz has already proven) The material culture of the Rig Veda is a very simple pastoral pre-literate early food producing life that describes pre-Harrapan vey well and matches with the pre-Harappan sites like Bhiranna which occur in Harayana just like the early Rig Veda does. The writing of late Vedic and early Post-Vedic is what describes the Harapan phase. He has completely disregarded all this evidence just so he can have his PIE(as the West reconstruct it) in India theory. His PIE in India is IMPOSSIBLE, because Vedic Sanskrit itself is as old or older than PIE of the linguists. So if there is was a real PIE it was way before 4000-5000BCE as the most conservative date given by India scholarship for the Rig Veda based on archaeology, geology, astronomy and linguistic analysis. This means Vedic Sansrit is definitely the oldest IE language. It is nearly 2000-3000 years older than Hittie, Mittani and Avestan. This means original PIE, whatever that was, was more closer in form to Vedic Sanskrit.

      Maybe sense will kick in Talageri will see this and develop a new theory of PIE for OIT to rival the AIT of the West. But so far all he has done is take the PIE of AIT which makes Vedic Sanskrit the youngest of all IE language and juxtapose it on India without due cognizance of the impossibilities of doing so. As his theory stands it will never be accepted by linguists East or West and eventually even OIT scholars will reject it too.

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    17. I don't know whether I consider linguistics as a "holy science" but Hindus like you with fundamentalist ideas about the antiquity of the Vedic language definitely consider it to be a "holy language" and find it as difficult to accept that any language (real or reconstructed) could be older than Vedic as Zakir Naik would find it to believe that other religious texts could be as "holy" as the Qoran.

      I find this kind of wishful religious fundamentalism pathetic, but I don't believe I have any duty to "kick sense" into such people. They can continue in their blissful dreams and beliefs. I will continue to do objective studies.

      Delete
    18. Sir, you are strawmamnnig our position and you know it. You have accused me of not reading your posts properly, but you obviously have not read mine above. I have made the following claims:

      1. Rig Veda is probably not PIE, but it is definitely the oldest of known IE languages. So I am not at all taking a fundamentalist position that Vedic Sanskrit is a holy and unchangeable language. I admit there was a language prior to it and that is probably the real PIE of all IE languages. All I am saying is this PIE is not necessarily the PIE that Western linguistics have reconstructed and we need to be skeptical of their postulations and demand stronger evidence for it. Their postulations makes Vedic Sanskrit the youngest of all IE language families and hence why they date it to 2nd millennium BCE and posit that PIE must have been outside of India for PIE to make its way from there to India. You have accepted the exact order they branched off in and thus proved them correct Vedic Sanskrit is indeed the youngest and thus PIE did not develop in India. I told you linguistic distance means geographical distance in linguistics. It is the original inference they used to exclude an Indian homeland, and they are still using it. By accepting yes Vedic Sanskrit is the youngest but nonetheless PIE originated in India you are taking a defeatist position and every linguist knows it. Your theory of PIE in India as they have reconstructed it is IMPOSSIBLE.

      2. Rig Veda has definitely been proven by Indian scholarship to be pre-Harrapan. It has been proven by linguistic paleontology, astronomy and archaeology. The top scholars like Kaznas, Kak, Frawley et al all agree AND provide the same kind of evidence you provide to prove your own internal chronology: the presence and absence of certain words. In the Rig Veda the following words are all absent, the words for bricks, writing, iron, fire alters, perforated jars, urban life and others. This does not describe the material culture of the Hararpan period. On the other hand, all these words are ONLY found in post-Vedic literature. The Rig Veda describes a simple early food producing pastoral life and chieftain like kingdoms in Harayana on the banks of the Saraswati and it perfectly matches 100% the earliest settlement we find in pre-Harapan sites like Bhiranna on the banks of the Saraswati in Harayana. This is using exactly the same method of linguistic paleontology you use, then why are you rejecting it?

      Seriously sir, what is your problem with our recorded Indian chronology. You are Hindu too, and so are we, so why are you so quick to reject our own chronology recorded by our ancestors. Were all our ancestors all incompetent, lying, stupid that they kept records from 7000BCE? They had a Saptarishi calendar for 6676 BCE and Kaliyuga calendar for exactly the date 3102BCE 18th Feb both correspond to the actual astronomical epoch they claim they are from and it already been proven by astronomers(Playfair et al) it is impossible they back calculated these. The AIT theorists(purely using just linguistic dogma) have rejected all these dates, but so are you, then what is the difference between you and other AIT guys. You are being just as destructive to our history as AIT, thus you are making yourself an enemy of the OIT camp.


      You have repeatedly evaded that Kazanaz is not a Hindu religious fundamentalist, hes an ex AIT believer himself and hes not even Indian and he says exactly the same things I said above. I know of your email correspondences and I know you have attacked him too. You seem to attack everybody that remotely disagrees with your theory. But why not just see it as helpful criticism from people in your own camp, at least the one you claim to be a part of. If Rig Veda really is 5000-7000BCE, then how you are going to accommodate this with your current Western derived chronology?

      How about not be so polemical and politely address the OIT concerns and make friends.

      Delete
  33. I have heard some historians mention Bharatas and Purus as disitinct tribes with the Kuru clan being a combination of Bharata and Puru.

    Also Sudas as with any leader in the Family Book Period was an oligarch rather than a king proper.

    ReplyDelete
  34. @Talageri, when will part two of your talk be out.

    ReplyDelete
  35. I would like to point out that TEA WAS NOT ORIGINALLY FROM CHINA REGION, AND IT WAS NOT INTRODUCED FROM CHINA TO ANYWHERE!! The Chai name HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CHINESE ANYONE AND IS NOT THE CHINESE WORD FOR TEA!!!!

    This is a British revisionist hoax claim to undermine indigenous Indic achievements that something as simple as tea could not have been cultivated by Indics on their own.

    Various independent tea were used by native tribes all over the world, from Native Americans boiling herbs to Mongol Siberian wooden chagai tea to even ETHIOPIANS using their own tea apart from Coffee.

    The idea that Indians didn't have their own tea and couldn't do a simple thing as boiling leaves to make brews, is something only a British historical revisionist with an agenda would fabricate and make up. There were indigenous tea plants going from South India to Eastern India region.

    I am disappointed that Mr Talegeri would fall for Chinese historical revisionist propoganda and false claims!!!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This is the height of conspiracy-theory-mongering. Both tea and chai are Chinese words, from two parts of China. The history of tea is well documented. In fact it is your claim which is a PN-Oakish revisionist hoax.

      You write: "The idea that Indians didn't have their own tea and couldn't do a simple thing as boiling leaves to make brews, is something only a British historical revisionist with an agenda would fabricate and make up."

      Of course Indians could boil leaves to make brews. But we are discussing the origin of the tea plant camellia sinensis, not of just any leaves. Ancient Ayurvedic texts mention all kinds of brews made by boiling different leaves (but not camellia sinensis). They also mention all kinds of medicinal cigars, where different herbs are wrapped up in leaves and smoked. Does this mean that tobacco also originated in India?

      Delete
    2. https://www.financialexpress.com/lifestyle/tracing-the-history-of-chai-and-indian-and-chinese-claims-on-the-culture-of-drinking-tea/1753034/

      Delete
  36. Dear Sir,

    I have watched your videos, read your blogs and have mostly read your second book. I believe you have the most comprehensive and coherent OIT narrative. I saw the video on the third book as well and verified your claims in second and third book as much as I could by reading the relevant verses in RV and also some Avestan side stuff. It all seem to fit based on my limited due diligence.

    I have a few questions wrt fate of the Dasa and Dasyus.

    You mention the non bharatha tribes, especially Anus and Druhyus and Non Bharatha Purus, emigrated from India to propagate the sacrificial religion to different parts of the world.

    Following questions arise in my mind wrt that:

    1. If Vedic Authors were all priests of Bharathas, what did the Dasyus write or chant or do in the form of rituals? Didnt the Dasyus write anything similar to Vedas while they were in India? Where are those texts?

    2. Considering the languages Dasa and Dasyus spread across the world were Indo Aryan to start with, I believe your assumption is their language should have been Vedic Sanskrit or near that which is quite reasonable. But how do we prove what language they spoke or wrote considering we dont have any text written by them in India because as per your thesis Vedas werent written by them? We cant point to Iran's Avesta as then it would be a circular proof. Also similarly how do we know what type of religion they had as to whether it was sacrificial like the Vedic composers? One hint could be the fact that Atharvan is credited for introducing fire worship to Vedic Priests also if I am right in reading your thesis. Even Soma is a borrowed ritual entity.

    If we assume Dasyus practiced the same type of worship and used the same language though no direct evidence of it is there, following questions arise:

    3. Do we assume all of the Dasyus and Dasas went away or did some of them remain in the Indus Region? What did these residual Dasyus do? Surrendered and joined up with Bharatha Rsis and descendants of their families became composers of later Vedas? If not what happened to these rival priests who stayed back in Indus region?

    4. What happened to Dasyus of Baluchistan (Bhalana) and Pasthunistan (Pakhta)? What happened to their rituals? Did they stop practicing it or codifying it. If people who left India and went to far away Iran (Persians and Parthians) codified their rituals in Avestan and preserved it, why not priests of Bhalanas and Pakhtas ?

    5. What happened to Turvasas and Yadus? What was their religion? Was it Sacrificial? Did they use Vedic Sanskrit? What were their texts corresponding to Vedas?

    6. Finally what was Dravidian civilization before 2000 BC and did they have any similar texts like Vedas they had written? Considering Dravidian Authors contributed to Vedas and even contributed few words, should we assume they had a well developed dravidian language in south and had sophisticated poetic literature similar to Vedas in complexity? Considering the Sangam poetry is only around 200 BC, what insights can we draw up on the Dravidian Language, Culture and Literature around 2000 BC timeframe when composers from South contributed to Vedas.

    One additional unrelated question:

    7. Do we know if the RV composers Aindras have any connection with the Aindra School of Grammar which both Panini and Tolkapiyar quote as their inspiration.

    Thanks,
    Sridhar

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Your questions are too shallow and not worthy of discussion. The case in hand is to prove OIT not what each and every tribe did during and after the RV composition - for such I say - we don't have the evidence.

      Delete
    2. Well there is evidence that they had their own Vedas which they chanted and their own priestly class and tripartite of society into three classes. The Druids based on old Roman accounts seemed to have a religion very similar to the Vedic religion where priests were the top advisers of Celtic society, assisted kings in battlefields and performed sacrifices including fire rituals. Like the Vedic education system they had to spend decades of their life memorizing the sacred hymns and spent their life doing research in sciences like astronomy and medicine. The Greeks and the Romans both praise them quite highly for their accomplishment in the sciences. They believed in reincarnation, had strong warrior culture and had women warriors.

      The Greeks and the Romans lost much of the original Vedic religion, but the Greeks preserve it in the form of the Orphic religion which like Drudism was also based on an elite order of philosopher priests memorizing sacred hymns and they believed in reincarnation and final reunion with God. Many of the Greek secret orders preserved the Gnostic traditions of India deriving from the Upanishads.

      Much of the original Vedic traditions in Europe which were called Pagan were wiped out by Christianity and then later Islam. It is likely even the middle east had surviving Vedic traditions

      The Russian people are also said to have had their own Russia Veda. They held onto their original Pagan beliefs till very recently and now they are trying to revive their old Vedic religion.

      However, don't forget that the European Pagan traditions, though they were all off-shoots of the Vedic religion were renegade Aryan groups and they were excommunicated from India because of practices like human sacrifice and not following the Vedic rites and way of life properly. They are not described positively in the Vedic and Post-Vedic literature.

      Why did India preserve the old Vedic religion the most? It is simple, India was the homeland.

      Delete
    3. These are fun questions, but answers to them can only be speculative/for musing. I don’t think there can be certain, evidence based answers to these questions.


      Question 1
      The Vedas too were not “texts.” They were oral saṃhitās, scribed down much later. Surely the Druhyus and Ānavas had their own hymns, but by the time their civilisations discovered writing, they were already christianised. We also have testimony that early Druid priests steadfastly refused to share their secret hymns with the early christian evangelists.

      Question 2- There are faulty premises in this. The languages spread across the world were not “Indo-Aryan.” The language detected in Ṛgveda and onwards is Indo-Aryan, but thousand of years before that we can only speculate on a proto-Indo-European, not Indo-Aryan. Just like Sanskrit is not Hindi to begin with, IA is not PIE to begin with. Talageri sir has drawn connections between Celtic systems and IA systems. Celtic Druids are indeed like ritual purohitas. Their goddess Brigit has analogues with Bhṛgu, and so on.

      Question 3
      We know there was a cakravartin by name of Śivi Auśinara. We know that his people migrated west to Iran, such that in the Avesta we find Aośnaras. But even later, in the Mahābhārata, we find Śaivyas and Auśinaras among Pāṇḍava enemies. So clearly entire tribes did not migrate away en-masse. Those who stayed back, their world views and systems were incorporated into what we can today call Hinduism- but this does not mean all individual strands can be identified. This article by Talageri sir is relevant- https://talageri.blogspot.com/2019/10/dravidian-connections-with-harappan.html

      Another interesting trivia here is the account of what Sagara Aikṣvāku did to his defeated enemies. It’s not that entire defeated people would be exiled out/migrate away. Only males of the royal lines were exiled, while women, children and old men were allowed to stay back and remain a part of society.

      Question 4
      Not necessary that Bhalānas and Pākthas also had Vedic-type hymnology or ritualism. In RV evidence, the 5 primary Aryan tribes appear to be Yadu, Turvaśa, Anu, Druhyu and Pūru. Other tribes like Bhalāna and Pāktha may not have followed similar practices. Plus, we know from evidence of last 1000 years that these mountain tribes can be converted to a different religion, and in the process lose a lot of their original nature.

      Questions 5 and 6
      This article by Talageri sir helps- https://talageri.blogspot.com/2019/10/dravidian-connections-with-harappan.html

      Delete
  37. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Sir, 1. When do you think the earliest Upanishads were composed?
    From what I've read Harappan seals show reverence to yogis but yoga as we know today (exercise) was first mentioned in the Upanishads (and Aatman-Brahman and other philosophical aspects that are strongly related to yoga are also mentioned in the Upanishads only) so I'm not getting the full picture
    2. How many aranyakas, brahmanas and Upanishads are from pre paninian Era? Wikipedia is confusing me

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Read papers by Sastry and Kalyanasundaram:

      https://www.academia.edu/43761472/An_analysis_of_some_aspects_of_Chronology_in_The_Early_Upani%E1%B9%A3ads_and_some_observations_of_consequence_to_the_Global_History_of_Philosophy_before_c_500_BCE

      Delete
  39. In the age space exploration and virtual reality, it is unfortunate that "mainstream scholarship" accepts a fraud theory like aryan migration.
    The main problem with OIT theory is that it is not advertised properly. It is not first time that these kind of notorious euro-centric theories generally accepted.. famous example is that of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man .. apparently humans originated out of Europe and this was actually accepted for decades.
    We need clearly expose that these fraud theories were part of euro-culture in past.

    ReplyDelete
  40. Now what do you think of this?? https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/who-arya-aryan-according-indians-s-suchindranath-aiyer/

    ReplyDelete
  41. One question on common proto-indo-european word for'Navy' and occurance of 'nau' or 'nava': doesn't this imply original aryans must be aware of sea, navigation, etc?
    Like there was a ship with thousands oars mentioned.
    Also do AIT people deliberately try to set the meaning of 'samudra' as lake, so that saraswati drains into a terminal lake; and also steppe people were horselords with no knowledge of ocean (although there are black sea and Caspian sea next to that area)

    Basically can we draw any conclusions from this word?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Nau and nava mean boat. The reconstructed word is also boat. Every culture near any water body has a boat.

      Delete
    2. Originates from tamizh word for tongue: "nA" and mouth: "vAy(e)" as it shaped like a tongue. nAvAy(e) is boat. nAvAlan tiVu is jambUdvIpa! and jambU phala is nAval pazham in tamizh!

      Delete
    3. Anthropologically attested my friends!! Anthropologically!! No brainer and no brains!

      Delete
  42. Isn't god Indra (one origin for word being 'indu') essentially a god of settled agrarian society - being revered for timely rains and water for supporting agriculture? He is portrayed as a rain god and a river-helping god in the Vedas.
    Its hard to believe a nomadic people would keep on praying to Indra for timely rain (lol).
    Point being such a god can if and only if evolved in a settled community or civilization based on rivers and monsoon. Osiris is the most important god for Egyptians, who is also a rain god.

    E.g. hymn below exactly show that:

    Now I shall proclaim the heroic deeds of Indra, those foremost deeds that the mace-wielder performed:
    He smashed the serpent. He bored out the waters. He split the bellies of the mountains.

    ReplyDelete
  43. In Avestan Fargard 2, in the context of expansion from aryan homeland, following hymn is present:

    10. Then Yima stepped forward, in-light[5], southwards[6], on the way of the sun[7], and (afterwards) he pressed the earth with the golden seal, and bored it with the poniard, speaking thus:

    'O Spenta Ârmaiti[8], kindly open asunder and stretch thyself afar, to bear flocks and herds and men.'

    Doesn't that indicate that Avestan people migrated from East to West?

    ReplyDelete
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