I am not on twitter, so I become aware of something on twitter only when someone brings it to my attention. Someone just brought to my attention the following tweet which mentions my name:
I wondered in what context this reference was made, and found out it was in response to the following earlier tweet:
It is clear from the above tweets that the first tweet above is by
someone who respects the work done by me. In fact, I have seen the name Atharv
Singh Baghel many times on different occasions. The second tweet above,
however, is by someone unfamiliar to me, and, if I go by the first tweet, this
M. Yuvan is presumably someone who would be identified with "left-liberals",
or with the "Dravidian" equivalents of "left-liberals"
represented by the Dravida Kazhagam brand of Breaking India politics.
Needless to say, my sympathies should logically be with the first
tweeter and not the second.
But sorry to say (with due apologies to Atharv Singh Baghel), it is not. My sympathies in this case at least are entirely with the second tweeter — whatever his political affiliations and views on all other subjects, including Hindutva or the AIT-OIT issue or my own other writings.
In fact, I find that the above (first) tweet represents a gross misrepresentation of
whatever I have written about Indian Civilization.
If (as I deduce from the above exchange) the present government is
thinking of denotifying the Onge Tribal Reserve and clearing the pristine
forests of Little Andaman for a mega-tourist city, it is definitely an
atrocity. In fact it is a massive and criminal mega-atrocity against
Indian Civilization. And I certainly must put things in their proper
perspective if my name is being misused in order to make it seem that my work
on Indian Civilization suggests in any way that the culture of the
Andaman Islanders is later than, subordinate to, or inferior to, the mainline historical
Classical (Vedic/Sanskrit) Indian Civilization.
So let me make many facts very clear.
A. The Andaman Islanders have indeed been "living here
for 60,000 years, far before [Classical Vedic/Sanskrit] Indian Civilization".
Neither I nor Koenraad Elst have claimed that Classical Vedic/Sanskrit
Civilization is older than the culture of the Andaman Islanders.
I doubt if even Nilesh Oak, whose name is also mentioned in the first
tweet along with that of Koenraad Elst and myself, and who does try to take the
dates of this Classical Vedic/Sanskrit Civilization (and of the events of the
Ramayana and Mahabharata) back by ten thousands of years, actually claims that Classical
Vedic/Sanskrit Civilization goes back 60000 years. [Of course, I cannot speak
for him, and he would have to clarify his actual position on this.]
And certainly, I don't think any of us (the three people named) would
justify the denotification of the Onge Tribal Reserve and clearing of the
pristine forests of Little Andaman for a mega-tourist city in any way. At
least I very definitely do not, though again I suppose I should not
presume to speak authoritatively on behalf of either Nilesh Oak or Koenraad
Elst.
B. In fact, Indian Civilization is not exclusively Classical
Vedic/Sanskrit Civilization, although Classical Vedic/Sanskrit Culture is
the binding force, the Umbrella Culture and the International Classical and
Historical Face of Indian Civilization.
I have made this fact clear repeatedly in my writings. As I put it in the 1997 Voice
of India volume, “Time for Stock Taking”, Indian or Hindu culture refers
to “every single aspect of India’s matchlessly priceless heritage: climate
and topography; flora and fauna; races and languages; music, dance and drama;
arts and handicrafts; culinary arts; games and physical systems; architecture;
costumes and apparels; literature and sciences…” (p.227). And it refers not
just to the “cultural practices springing from Vedic or Sanskritic sources,
but from all other Indian sources independently of these: the
practices of the Andaman islanders and the (pre-Christian) Nagas are as Hindu
in the territorial sense, and Sanatana in the spiritual sense, as classical
Sanskritic Hinduism” (ibid). Need I add, I have repeatedly pointed out
throughout my writings that Vedic culture was originally the culture of one
part of India — Haryana and surrounding areas — and that Vedic culture is not
the source of Hindu culture but just one part of it (even
if certainly the oldest recorded and most revered part).
In that
article, in my definition of Hindutva, I pointed out that a true Hindutvavadi
should feel deep pain and impelled to take strong action, not only when he
hears of issues of conventional Hindutva discourse, but also “when he
hears that the Andamanese races and languages are becoming extinct; that vast
tracts of forests, millions of years old, are being wiped out forever; that
ancient and mediaeval Hindu architectural monuments are being vandalised,
looted or fatally neglected; that priceless ancient documents are being
destroyed or left to rot and decay; that innumerable forms of arts and
handicrafts, architectural styles, plant and animal species, musical forms and
musical instruments, etc. are becoming extinct; that our sacred rivers and
environment are being irreversibly polluted and destroyed…..” (Time for
Stock Taking, 1997, pp.227-8).
I elaborated on this in great detail in my article "Sita Ram Goel, memories and ideas", written for the Sita Ram Goel Commemoration Volume, entitled "India's Only Communalist", edited by Koenraad Elst, published by Voice Of India, New Delhi, in 2005. A major part of this article has been put up on my blogspot as "Hindutva or Hindu Nationalism".
In that
article, I had described the criminal attack on Indian Culture progressively taking
place in the Andaman islands in the mercenary name of "Development", and quoted some Acharya
(the then head of the Port Blair-based Society for Andaman and Nicobar
Ecology) from a 1999 article in Asiaweek as saying about the Andaman islanders:
"‘they will turn up as beggars and servants and prostitutes.’ That
would surely be a sorry epitaph for one of the world’s proudest hunter-gatherer
tribes." I had also pointed out: "The tragedy, described above
is so great that no words can even begin to describe it. It will not be an
exaggeration to say that the day on which the last of the Andamanese tribals
breathes his last breath will be one of the blackest days in our modern human
history, in more ways than one. Indian culture will be very much the poorer, by
one of its three native races and by one of its six native language families,
apart from the different other aspects, most of them probably unrecorded, of
Andamanese culture [….] if the natives of Tasmania were ruthlessly wiped
out from the face of this earth, in mediaeval times, in the fanatical name of
religion, the natives of the Andaman islands will have been ruthlessly wiped
out from the face of this earth, in modern times, in the mindless name of
progress and development".
Therefore I
certainly object strongly to my name being cited in support of any scheme to denotify
the Onge Tribal Reserve and clear the pristine forests of Little Andaman for a
mega-tourist city.
C. This brings up the question of tribal identities and rights, and the use of words like ādivāsī (aboriginal) to describe the tribal population of India's forests, hills and other isolated areas or even some specific parts of the country.
Hindu thinkers (myself included) have always objected to this word
coined in modern times as a translation of the English word
"aboriginal" to describe certain sections of the population of the country
as native to India as distinct from certain others who are then
presumably outsiders who do not originally belong to India.
Clearly along with the AIT, the word is like a tool or weapon in the hands of
the Breaking India forces. The RSS thinkers therefore choose to use the term vanavāsī,
or "forest dwellers", and in general I concur with the term.
However, in certain matters, the word ādivāsī is more
appropriate. If the word is taken in the sense of "aboriginal to the
country" as pointed out above, then it is certainly wrong and malicious.
But if it specifically means "aboriginal to the forest-etc. areas
occupied by them", then it is very appropriate. Unlike
the other castes and communities of India who have been shifting from one area
to another in the course of history, the tribal people of most parts of India
have indeed been occupying ancestral areas since thousands of years, and their
rights to the areas they occupy are inalienable. This is true even in
respect of the reserved or notified tribal areas within the Indian mainland.
This is even more true in the case of the Andaman islanders, some of whom, like
the Sentinelese, have lived in their areas for ten thousands of years with
almost no contact with outsiders. No outsider to their areas has the right to
take over their areas.
Yes, the Andaman islands are an inalienable part of India, and India has every right to undertake any measures it sees fit to protect the sovereignty and integrity of the Andaman islands and of India as a whole, but without trampling on the rights of the Andaman islanders.
In this case, what we are seeing is a ruthless attempt by cold-blooded mercenary elements to destroy the Andaman culture for profits, trampling on the very rights of the Andamanese people to even exist.
Earlier, I had written a blog "Leftists and Rightists" to condemn the mercenary rightist attempts to destroy India's priceless environmental heritage for profits in the name of Development in respect of the Aarey Forests in Mumbai. But this is even worse.
The exact parallel to the present attempts by the Indian government to destroy the ecology of the Andaman islands and trample on the rights of the Andamanese people is in the 2009 American film Avatar, which showed earthlings trying to completely destroy the ecology of an alien planet and wipe out its native population.
[Note added 6/2/2021: In respect of the fact that "the Andaman islands are an inalienable part of India", the following may be noted:
1. The Andaman islands (as per Wikipedia) were taken over by Rajendra Chola (1014-1042 CE), and have been connected to India ever since. Further, Buddhist records in China and India record a myth that the Buddha went to the Andaman islands and when he stepped into the water to bathe, the inhabitants stole his clothes, and so the Buddha declared that the people of the islands would never wear clothes or grow their hair. The historicity of this myth is not relevant, what is relevant is that it shows that the Andaman islands were familiar to Buddhist lore.
2. The very name of the Andaman islands is believed to be derived from the name of Hanuman who stopped there to rest during his search for the kidnapped Sita. The Chinese texts refer to these islands as Sundeman and the Malay people call them pulo Handuman.
3. Most important of all, as per even the notorious Reich papers and Tony Joseph's book, the "First Indian" or "Onge" genes, most purely represented in the Andaman islanders, is found in almost every caste and tribe within India, but nowhere outside the greater Indian area.
As I put it in my 2019 book "Genetics and the Aryan Debate" in the last paragraph of chapter 9:
"In conclusion, however, we owe a debt to these geneticists, including their spokesperson Tony Joseph, for presenting to us the ultimate scientific evidence for a genetic factor which distinguishes all Indians, whatever their caste, language, region or religion, and binds them together, and to this land, in one single identity distinct from all the other people of the world (who lack that factor): the First Indian ancestry, which is found right from the Andaman Islands (in its purest form) to the ancient BMAC area in Central Asia. Incidentally, this should also provide food for thought to anyone thinking that the inclusion of the Andaman islands within 'India' is an accident of British colonial history."]
D. And is all this in any way a part of an agenda for India or
Indian/Hindu Civilization? Or, in other words, if these reports, about
the intentions of the Indian government to denotify the Onge Tribal Reserve and
clear the pristine forests of Little Andaman for a mega-tourist city, are true,
should it come as a surprise? Or should it be excused in any twisted way as
being part of a concern for India or Indian/Hindu Civilization?
Well, see what happened two years ago.
An
American citizen (John Allen Chau, aged 27, probably, as per his surname and
photograph, a person of Chinese or East Asian origin) on an Evangelist mission
to the Sentinel Islands in the Andamans was shot dead by the tribals. (The
quotations below are from the TOI Mumbai edition of 23/11/2018).
Notable
facts:
1.
"In June 2018, the Home Ministry passed a new notification allowing
foreigners to visit 29 out-of-bound islands in the Andamans. On a complaint
from anthropologist Vishwajit Pandya, the National Scheduled Caste and Scheduled
Tribe Commission on July 13 asked the home ministry and the Andaman
administration to clarify on RAP. The commission hasn't received a reply yet".
Or shall we say the government refuses to reply, let alone take action.
2.
Although there were still apparently "three layers of restrictions in
place to protect the island's indigenous tribes and forests", this
American Evangelist managed to bypass them all. He writes in his diary: "God
sheltered me against the Coast Guard and the Navy": "God" or
the new "Hindutvavadi" government?
3. The newspapers were full of reports about the detailed Evangelical Mission of this "daring" hero, who wrote in his diary about his mission to "establish the kingdom of Jesus on the island", and whose Christian spirit of forgiveness comes shining through: in his diary he gives details about the attacks on him by the tribals (including how the Bible served as a miraculous shield to protect his life from one of the heathen arrows), but writes "do not blame the natives if I am killed"!
And
yet, the DGP of the Andaman Islands Depender Pathak tells us "It was a
misplaced adventure. He cannot be called a preacher, but his diary indicates
that he was a believer in Christianity", and "according to
Home Ministry sources, there is no evidence so far to substantiate that he was
visiting the protected island - which is out of bounds for both Indians and
foreigners unless they get mandatory approvals under the Protection of
Aboriginal Tribe (Regulation) and Indian Forest Act - on an Evangelical mission".
A clean chit from "God".
4. The Government registered an FIR against "unknown tribals" for this "murder", and "When asked, a home ministry officer said there was no plan as of now to review lifting of RAP relaxations in A&N Islands". So the crusades could now continue and intensify until the Divine Goal is achieved: it will be a no-holds-barred Evangelization drive to help "establish the kingdom of Jesus" throughout India!
So, is this new present plan to "develop" the Andaman islands for money totally unexpected? And is it born out of any kind of concern for the interests of "Indian/Hindu Civilization"?
It so happens that I also took part in this Twitter debate, narrowly too late for Shrikant's comment, but my tweet was in the same sense. The Andamanese presence there is not older than "Indian" but certainly much older than Vedic civilization. And regardless of this chronological question, it is scandalous that the BJP takes its development as far as sacrificing these Tribals and these forests to it.
ReplyDeleteMr. Talageri and Mr. Elst, two rare voices of profound rationality and deep consciousness on India/Hindu/India.
ReplyDeleteHappy just to be here to see your views, which I take validation from.
A superb, excellent reply. Unfortunately the so called protectors of Hindu culture are not utilizing the services of people like you for presenting facts on Hindu civilization and culture. Only ji huzur type of people will find a place in this government, not true swabhimani sanatani like you.
ReplyDeleteI have a problem with your opinion on this matter. The Andamanese people are not and never part of Indian cultural traditions. There were some Islanders far away from India. Its only during the British control of India that they become part of Indian sovereignty. They have nothing to do with Indians and we should relinquish control of that Area. This is my opinion at least.
ReplyDeleteWhat a wonderful solution: according to you we should hand over the control of the Andaman islands, I suppose, to either China, Pakistan, Burma or South Africa. Or let the Andaman islands become an independent country (with the Andamanese people forming a government and joining the UN).and the Chinese army protecting their territory from others, including India!
DeletePlease don't distort the meaning of my above article in this way.
The very name Andaman is supposed to be based on the belief that Hanuman flew over the island and landed on it in his search for Sita. In any case, it was during the rule of Rajendra Chola (1014-1042) that it became a part of India, and not in the British period.
And if we start deciding national boundaries on the basis of history, all non-natives will have to be removed from the Americas and Australia, and the continents handed over completely into the control of the original natives of those islands!
Where is the evidence that Rajendra Chola took over the Andaman Islands? My point was that we don't share cultural affinity with the Andaman people. But point taken, we have control over the Andamans we just can't relinquish control of it. So I agree with you, only on the polical side of the spectrum.
DeleteWell, Wikipedia says Rajendra Chola took over the Andaman islands. Have you done research on the subject, and found evidence that this is false? For that matter, I remember reading somewhere that even some Buddhist texts mention the Andaman islands, though I which I will have to check. But since when do countries require ancient historical references or cultural uniformity in order to continue possession of their areas?
DeleteIn any case, you have not answered any of my questions: do you mean India should just let the Andaman islands go, and let the most powerful country grab it, or should we ask the tribal Andaman islanders to hold elections and form a government and apply for membership of the UN? Don't you see the utter senselessness and irresponsibility, and yes anti-Indianness, of your "opinion" that "we should relinquish control of that area"?
And further, it is India which has the Andamanese DNA in most of its population, and no other area in the world. In the last paragraph of my 2019 book, "Genetics and the Aryan Debate", I wrote:
Delete"In conclusion, however, we owe a debt to these geneticists, including their spokesperson Tony Joseph, for presenting to us the ultimate scientific evidence for a genetic factor which distinguishes all Indians, whatever their caste, language, region or religion, and binds them together, and to this land, in one single identity distinct from all the other people of the world (who lack that factor): the First Indian ancestry, which is found right from the Andaman Islands (in its purest form) to the ancient BMAC area in Central Asia. Incidentally, this should also provide food for thought to anyone thinking that the inclusion of the Andaman islands within "India" is an accident of British colonial history."
Though thank you for your comments. It has impelled me to make a short addition to the above article to clarify this business of the Andamans being an inalienable part of India.
DeleteYou're welcome.
DeleteSkrikant,
DeleteWhile there is indeed a unifying link between all Indians, it is totally wrong and a misinterpretation by Joseph to call them 'andamanese in their purest form'.
The andamanese were used simply as a proxy sample in the absence of India Hunter gatherer dna.
Actually the 'first Indians' diverged from the Andamanese around 50k years ago according to Reich et al, similar to t time frame of divergence from East asians. Please clarify this when discussing the first Indians, the Indian Hunter gatherer for which we are still awaiting a genetic sample so as not create a false equivalency.
I completely agree with what you have said here, Shrikantmaam. Since you have spoken about this obsession with mindless 'growth' and/or 'development', I want to ask you this: have you read the book 'Small is Beautiful: a study of economics as if people mattered' by E F Schumacher? If you haven't, I'd definitely encourage you to read it, the points made in the book fit in very neatly with what Hindutva is actually supposed to be about.
ReplyDeleteThank you for the suggestion. I will definitely see this book.
DeleteSir I have a question to ask you which is not related to the topic above. Do you have any idea what clothing the RV people wore? What was their dressing style? People don't change their dress dressing style suddenly when they meet/rule another culture. Take for example the British who ruled India, they didn't suddenly wear dothis and become shirtless. Same goes for the Arabs, Mongolians, Turks and so on. Rather Indians started to wear parts and adopted the dressing style of the foreigners like example the North Western parts of India. Also reverse is true when Indians dominated the East, the South East Asians adopted the Indian style of dressing. Even though the weather is done suited for such a dressing style. So if we find evidence of Indian dressing style in Eurasia then that will prove the OIT even more. What you thing?
ReplyDeleteProblem, Europe is too cold for dress styles of India (Southeast Asia and East Asia climate is similar to India) to be maintained.
DeleteRomans adopted Greek style clothing even though they were the conquerors.
DeleteNo, you certainly never read clearly what I have written above. British, Arabs, Turks and so when they invaded India their dressing left a mark in India. So if the Steppe people came into India their dressing style would have been obseerved. The Brahmin clothing would be that of a cold climate since their supposed represent the elite. Now as for the reverse if you look at the Chinese and Japanese (cold climate) they too have adopted Indian dressing style especially what monks wear. Take a look the dunhuang caves and see the art work there. Also look at early mycenaean paintings as well.
DeleteRight. Now I get it
DeleteWait, then what about the Greeks? They were once the elite in India, yet we dont have Greek clothing in Northern India. Hellenic Dress styles should have been in India. Same with Sythian (saka) clothing , they too were the elite in India for a long time (we have an era called the saka era (583 BCE)), we should see it in India.
DeleteGreeks and Saka mostly adopted Indian culture, they become Buddhist/Indianised. But we do observe their dressing style in Gandhara and Bactria and some extant in Pakistan carvings. But this did not effect the priestly class (Brahmins/Bikshus) its Greeks/Sakas who adopted the dressing style of that of the Indians when they converted. Now take the example when Arabs brought Islam into India, the new priestly class are the mullahs and their dressing style is that of the Middle East. The same goes for Christanity.
DeleteThanks, but we don't know exactly what Vedic clothing was like back then. Modern Indian priests may only be a glimpse of the past, but the dress styles may be of midieval origin. We don't what the kings of the Vedic period wore either. We have to figure out what they wore. Also it is the Turks who bought Islam to South Asia, not the Arabs.
DeleteFrom a quick glance at various IE priests, I see that they all have loose hanging clothing, kind of like steryotypical greek clothing, and people wore robes in the northern Europe area. Same with Zoroastrial priests, save for the robes. The Vedic priests are similar except they are less clothed on the upper body, maybe due to the humid climate.
DeleteYes thats why I wanted Shrikant ji to tell us what the RV wore and how they dress if thats possible based on the Texts. We do know from the staue of the'Priest-King of Mohenjo-Daro' the clothing he is wearing is similar to later day dress code for monks and brahmins. So I think we do get a glimpse of what the dress code must have been during the vedic period. The Turks brought Islam but they were arabized Turks. Thats also a case for another point. The people who spread a particular faith/religion/mythology to other cultures may not nescessary be speaking the same language of the former. Like the case of the Turks.
DeleteWe should be interested of the clothings of the Prestly class, the Romans and Persians did wear a similar dress code as the Indians. Even the celts I'll say followed the same.
DeleteThe priest king of Mohenjodaro is a different story. The Vedic people are better coressponding with the OCP and the Painter Grey Ware Culture (both have earliest dates to between 3000-2000 BCE, older than thought). The Indus Valey civilization and the Yadavas, if you map the ranges of both during the Vedic period, they over lap. The yadavas (Indus people) have a different culture than the Purus and Anu/Dhruhyus (who share a similar culture). Therefore the priest king may not be representative of the IE culture.
Delete